More background: This change has an interesting history; I suggested it offhand as a strange idea, but it solved a few key factors we were investigating, like AA/MoM defense being too high for too low a cost........
Ok, you said you want to here our thoughts here are mine.
This is the most ridiculous change possible. I dropped AA/MoM a few month ago because the damage mitigration is just a sad joke compared to other dmg mitigration methods. If you guys still think AA/MoM is too strong for too low cost you really have no idea what's going on in your game. AA provides almost no protection for a shitload of manareg. If you get a BIG hit from let's say vaal or dominus there is almost no difference between getting this hit with or without AA. And MoM is horrible too. Most people use between 2 and 3 auras means they don't have a big amout of mana left (many only 800-1500). Now if these poor folks get a big hit their mana went to zero and it does not even take away 40% of that hit and that for the "low price" of being unable to cast & therefore leech for some time or maybe loose their incinerate stages and other nice things. As I said before if you really think AA/MoM is too strong for too low cost sorry then you don't know anything about your own game!
The point with Vaal smash and dom's touch is that you're not really supposed to take the hit from them, it's why those attacks have such a long build up time. If you get hit by them you should take a penalty. And not instantly dying is pretty powerful I'd say. Also with 800-1500 unreserved mana with on auras/ heralds, your mana regen even with AA is going to cap you off on mana in all of 2 seconds. Yeah, you lose incinerate stages or other nice things but most builds if they survive would at least have to pop a flask or something. That's pretty powerful if you ask me.
but when you take damage spikes like that it shuts down your AA, stops you from warping, stops you frm attack back and leeching, youre dead in the water for long enough to be obliterated. Might sound like a small amount of time but thats all it takes in this game. Life based attackers will have taken far less damage and their regenning LIFE at the same speed the EB builds are regenning mana.
People talk about MoM giving you 30% mitigation and a large effective life pool... no, its not both, you can look at it as one or the other. If you are looking at your unreserved mana as life pool then its not mitigating anything, you essentially have a larger life pool with no mitigation at all from MoM, and imo that is the way to look at it, thats how it plays. It doesnt play like 30% mitigation at all. AA gives mitigation, but its pityful against even mid to large damage, comparatively.
The proposed problem is too drastic of a change. The real problem lies with over-buffing or over-nerfing builds until most people settle for a handful of popular builds. This change might be interesting, sure, but that doesn't make it viable. Key stones are supposed to be a key part of a build, its a core element. The things people are complaining about are not the core element at all, it is all the additives it is used to gain too easily. Those skills are still there, just mostly now redundant... if you're not happy about the way Arctic armour and Mind over Matter are working, then why are they still in the game? If you can't run a skill past level 15, how is it going to be made viable when it really doesn't do as much as its given credit for.
Its been suggested before, just put MoM down to 20%, or make it applicable to only melee/physical/spells/projectiles, any of those singularly.
I don't think breaking just about every int-based build that we know is going to rectify the problem. Its just going to make people jump onto another bandwagon until the next big change when EB/AA/MoM is buffed again because everyone stops using it when its this hard to run.
Its not about ease of accessibility, its about viability and effectiveness. Its already kind of a juggling act to get EB/AA/MoM to work with your gear and auras (and as mentioned before, when you take a big hit, the defense is not there other than MoM). MoM is too strong, I think AA is fine for the huge cost it requires being that the current EB was the only way to viably run AA. I think adding a ring of fire to jump through won't balance out the cost of jumping through it, but just make people stop jumping through it at all.
IGN- Lachleo
3.3 HC CI Cold Crit: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2184026
Awakening Beta Build: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1280231/
2.2 HC CI Cold Crit: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1584182
Last edited by Lachesys on Apr 21, 2015, 10:38:33 PM
I don't think breaking just about every int-based build that we know is going to rectify the problem.
You can't keep your characters or items when a new league starts so there aren't really going to be any broken builds seeing as no builds actually exist at the start of a new league.
I don't think breaking just about every int-based build that we know is going to rectify the problem.
You can't keep your characters or items when a new league starts so there aren't really going to be any broken builds seeing as no builds actually exist at the start of a new league.
A good portion of the player-base doesn't play leagues, like me...I don't participate in them because I see no point in it...all that time, work, currency, etc etc put into something that is done and over with after the league ends...to me that's like building a house and then tearing it down after 6 months or so and starting fresh...and one could argue the same could be said when the game shuts it's sever's down one day but that's quite a bit different in my eye's, because that could be many years from now! Hell look at runescape, that is still going, as well as ever-quest I believe, WoW, as well as many other games.
Some find interest in leagues, some don't...some just like a more permanent play style...juts not sure how much GGG is onboard, if not at all! lol, and one could also argue why would you want to play the same char over and over, well that's not entirely what we do...we have the ability to start another, you can have 25 by default, we just want to be able to go back months down the road and re-enjoy what we once created!
Last edited by justinmm1988 on Apr 21, 2015, 11:02:45 PM
A good portion of the player-base doesn't play leagues, like me...I don't participate in them because I see no point in it...all that time, work, currency, etc etc put into something that is done and over with after the league ends...to me that's like building a house and then tearing it down after 6 months or so and starting fresh...and one could argue the same could be said when the game shuts it's sever's down one day but that's quite a bit different in my eye's, because that could be many years from now! Hell look at runescape, that is still going, as well as ever-quest I believe, WoW, as well as many other games.
Where do you think the league characters go to after the leagues end?
Last edited by elitedesolator on Apr 21, 2015, 11:05:06 PM
Most times to sit and rot, because most people that play leagues have no interest in hoping from leagues to standard to enjoy their old characters, who want's to play a character on an entirely different realm than they started on?! Their friends aren't there, that's not where they started, not were their stash is, answer is very few...most just sell off their gear when they get carried over to standard.
Last edited by justinmm1988 on Apr 21, 2015, 11:01:58 PM
Its been suggested before, just put MoM down to 20%, or make it applicable to only melee/physical/spells/projectiles, any of those singularly.
thats an interesting idea, making it apply to only physical for example. Phys would be my first thought, because the idea that mind over matter 'mitigates' (I still feel like thats not really a proper description of mom, but...) elemental spell damage as well as physical, where armour for example is just phys and then u have resists, everyone else is forced to deal with ele through resist. but given AA gives (poor, imo) phys mitigation already, and EB casters are a spell class, maybe it would be cool for it to be % elemental damage is taken from mana before life. That way physical, melee etc is really scary for those chars but they have defense vs spells which would seem a bit more fitting for them, thematically that seems better and given phys is actually, imo, more scary now than ele, it would be less powerful.
I dunno, i really like the idea of 'nerfing' mom in that kind of way though. I largely agree with your other points too.
More background: This change has an interesting history; I suggested it offhand as a strange idea, but it solved a few key factors we were investigating, like AA/MoM defense being too high for too low a cost........
Ok, you said you want to here our thoughts here are mine.
This is the most ridiculous change possible. I dropped AA/MoM a few month ago because the damage mitigration is just a sad joke compared to other dmg mitigration methods. If you guys still think AA/MoM is too strong for too low cost you really have no idea what's going on in your game. AA provides almost no protection for a shitload of manareg. If you get a BIG hit from let's say vaal or dominus there is almost no difference between getting this hit with or without AA. And MoM is horrible too. Most people use between 2 and 3 auras means they don't have a big amout of mana left (many only 800-1500). Now if these poor folks get a big hit their mana went to zero and it does not even take away 40% of that hit and that for the "low price" of being unable to cast & therefore leech for some time or maybe loose their incinerate stages and other nice things. As I said before if you really think AA/MoM is too strong for too low cost sorry then you don't know anything about your own game!
This sadly seems to be the case.
I can't imagine how a change this bad was even considered. Even if they wanted to nerf the EB / MoM / AA combo there are plenty of elegant ways to do it instead of just gutting EB and making it worthless. They could have reduced MoM to 20%, they could have made the EB conversion be 50%-75%, or they could have made the energy shield granted by intellect not count towards mana with EB.
As it is my incinerator is fucking dead and my EKer will only survive because I am wealthy in this game. Totally broken / worthless EB node that no viable caster build will be able to take?
Don't even bother taking the worthless EB keystone.
GG GGG you nerfed budget builds while leaving the combo you wanted to nerf fully intact.
Creator of the Praxis ring.
Want to stop power creep? Gut crit chance and crit multi.
Ok, you said you want to here our thoughts here are mine.
This is the most ridiculous change possible. I dropped AA/MoM a few month ago because the damage mitigration is just a sad joke compared to other dmg mitigration methods. If you guys still think AA/MoM is too strong for too low cost you really have no idea what's going on in your game. AA provides almost no protection for a shitload of manareg. If you get a BIG hit from let's say vaal or dominus there is almost no difference between getting this hit with or without AA. And MoM is horrible too. Most people use between 2 and 3 auras means they don't have a big amout of mana left (many only 800-1500). Now if these poor folks get a big hit their mana went to zero and it does not even take away 40% of that hit and that for the "low price" of being unable to cast & therefore leech for some time or maybe loose their incinerate stages and other nice things. As I said before if you really think AA/MoM is too strong for too low cost sorry then you don't know anything about your own game!
The point with Vaal smash and dom's touch is that you're not really supposed to take the hit from them, it's why those attacks have such a long build up time. If you get hit by them you should take a penalty. And not instantly dying is pretty powerful I'd say. Also with 800-1500 unreserved mana with on auras/ heralds, your mana regen even with AA is going to cap you off on mana in all of 2 seconds. Yeah, you lose incinerate stages or other nice things but most builds if they survive would at least have to pop a flask or something. That's pretty powerful if you ask me.
but when you take damage spikes like that it shuts down your AA, stops you from warping, stops you frm attack back and leeching, youre dead in the water for long enough to be obliterated. Might sound like a small amount of time but thats all it takes in this game. Life based attackers will have taken far less damage and their regenning LIFE at the same speed the EB builds are regenning mana.
People talk about MoM giving you 30% mitigation and a large effective life pool... no, its not both, you can look at it as one or the other. If you are looking at your unreserved mana as life pool then its not mitigating anything, you essentially have a larger life pool with no mitigation at all from MoM, and imo that is the way to look at it, thats how it plays. It doesnt play like 30% mitigation at all. AA gives mitigation, but its pityful against even mid to large damage, comparatively.
seething hybrid flask..... it doesnt shut off your AA
I'd have to say I have a mixed feeling about this. It is nice because you can probably reserve 100% of your mana and still have the "ES" mana to use. But at the same time one of the big things you get for using this, and usually the main reason why I would think people do it, is not only to have more mana, but also because it gives you a massive jump in your mana regain rate...
But the massive mana regen rate is the problem. I'm running raiQT's RF Incinerator right now and I have 187 mana/sec with just EB, and two skill points in mana and mana/sec that didn't also give me life or life regen. It took me 8 skill points (including travel), with 3 pieces of equipment that have mana regen and I can run a level 17 AA. There are literally no other builds that can use this gem right now, the cost is too high and I can do it with about the same investment that someone other builds have to just accept as travel nodes. And most builds couldn't even run a level 5 AA only sometimes.
GGG can take out the gem but since AA is the main defensive mechanic for several builds, seems like something they're unwilling to do. Instead they decided to change the mechanics of EB so that you don't get a massive mana regen but can still draw from a large pool of "mana" to spell cast. It frees them to rebalance the mana degen of AA so that more builds can run it (with some investment).
As for MoM interactionss with that high of a mana/sec there is effectively no cost to using it since even if you take a hit that completely drains all of your mana, you can still spell cast almost instantly since you're mana/sec is that high. You've basically gotten a true 30% damage reduction and it costs you maybe half a second of dealing damage.
187? That's it, should should have over 400! My guy is 425, even with that...running AA/CoD/Incinerate, I will still go OOM on tuff fights like Trio/Death and Taxes/Poorjoys Asylum/ etc So no, I disagree, effective against utter shit mobs yes, against harder things no! And it takes a lot more investment than that, not to mention you need maximum mana on gear, mana regen on gear, for it even to be effective to a degree of "we should step in" ...basically you need to get everything aligned, which doesn't happen over a short period...187 is nothing, wouldn't even use a CoD with just 187, almost anything would take you oom....not to mention sustaining incinerate would eat that alive!
L O L
The Hyperbomber for 2.6: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1879383
