A potential change I'm keen to hear your thoughts on

"

Chundadragon wrote:

Too many hardcore players think that 4 layered defences is tanky then lack DPS/grow overconfident and put themselves in a lot of danger. Tankiness =/= safety.

It's all about the right defences for the right build. Whether or not the change is positive, I think everyone agrees that 8k eHP on a flameblast builds with only Cloak and AA who can kill packs instantly and use IC is probably the safest build on Hardcore. In fact, it's been proven the safest build in hardcore by countless players hitting 100 with that build.

As for the 2h build, show the build doing that in a damage 78 map and I'll be impressed. Defences at those levels and areas just don't matter and show me nothing.

its not about impressing you with a build, its not about showing what build is best, its about looking at the idea that MoM+AA is the best defense in the game and laughing at it for the complete nonsense that it is. Given you cant show me a single MoM+AA cloak of D spekll caster who can afk those areas with no ic or pots it shows everything needed to prove that point.


8k eHP with only AA as a defense is nothing to do with flameblast being what it is. More often than not HvR is not even using MoM, he hardly has any defense, flameblast is king for that sort of ladder pushing because fire prolif clears packs like crazy and it works while using a supreme Truth, Perandus rings and a Chitus Apex, nothing at all to do with how good or bad MoM+AA is, that should be pretty clear for anyone to see. MoM+AA is 'enough' for that sort of build to 'sometimes' make it to level 100 hc. You want to talk to HvR about what he thinks is a stronger defense, MoM+AA or an Aegis Max Block character? I can tell you right now hes not going to pick MoM. That has no bearing on why he rolls flameblasters, its about the offensive capabilities on a tight budget in a new league and the ability to use XP gear.

Its not the safest build on hc at all, and if you think that you are very badly informed about this game, I dont honestly believe that you really believe that, I think you know its not because you are smarter than that. Its the quickest to get to 100 from a fresh start, because of prolif, because of xp gear and the builds that work with the xp gear.

Fire prolif being broken + xp gear being retarded shit that shouldnt even be in the game and the xp gear on offer synergysing with flameblast prolif is not a reason to call MoM+AA so op that we have to redesign EB and destroy probably 100s of builds in the process.

Instead of nerfing the shit that us poor self founds can barely attain why don't you nerf the shit that is actually OP? Oh wait! I know why...your elitist money players would shit all over you if you did...nevermind. My bad.

What about RF, will it still drain ES? Or just life?

How many people get MoM and EB both from the tree?

Cos I don't see how going all the way from EB to MoM (and you don't get MoM if you don't have EB) is worth it. And going by this, how can something that's supposed to be "overpowered" not be worth travelling across the skill tree for?

I think it's fairly obvious the aegis max block is "tankier" than CoD+AA.. that's not even a question.

As I said, it's not about pushing the defenses to the max - obviously CoD+AA loses there but what it is a perfect buffer for the perfect build. It's not about tanking hits. Imo, I think any other defense is weaker than CoD + AA for that build. It so rarely takes hits that CoD is actually perfect for it. HvC also gave good feedback on the chest for his SWT build.

And I can guarantee you I think that CoD Flameblast is the safest build in HC. Ask HvC now whether max block Aegis or CoD+AA Flameblast is safer, he will tell you the CoD build is safer. As will Yoshi, as will Zaunn, as will.. I cba to list. (All level 100) The mechanics in the skill, not only the speed make it super safe.

I can see where you are coming from but imo it's a big misconception to think tankiness makes you safer.

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TheExile777 wrote:

What about RF, will it still drain ES? Or just life?

To expand upon that, does ES still affect RF damage (given and taken)? That might actually be good/bad depending on your point of view. Some people like the added damage given, while others can't sustain the RF when someone with discipline joins the group.

My guess would be it effectively works like EB does today (RF ignores it).

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

well considering half the builds these days are please die b4 you hit me, some defence is better than none, even things like, fakner a perfectly viable atziri spec have less defence than a mom AA char.

and seeing as mom AA is supposed to supplement spell casters, unless you are like... incinerate or flame surge, its not like you even get hit often.

AA deals with small hits, pretty much all trash cant break AA if you have a tiny bit of armour. mom to dealw ith big hits which shouldnt be hitting you often.


how about we do defensive comparison

MoM AA(with motlen shield, or perhaps ir grace): very high effective hp, most mana/es&hp nodes give just as much hp as pure hp nodes. immune to almost all fire dmg, and 85% of trash in the game.

pure evasion with acro: avg effective hp, almost purely immune to phys of all types, regular defence vs spells, normally uses lightning coil to help mitigate rare big hits of physical

pure armour: 30k+ armour regular hp, normal defence vs spells, still gets fistedby map kole/brutus

evasion, block: similar to pure evasion, sightly better at dealing with spells thanks to spell block

armour, block(most likely aegis): probably highest dmg mitigation of all builds, 75% of everything doesnt even hit, instead regening es

massive hp regen(most likely rf): high hp, ridiculous regen if using ruubby, can also use mom&AA, grace aswell if desired


all builds die if get hit by vaal smash. builds that can afk tank things are limited to aegis and AA, AA being inferior, mom has arguably the highest effective hp of all builds except perhaps rf, vs big physical hits light coil/armour then mom AA then everything else.

mom AA is almost the best defence since it can be used with almost everything else, and even stand alone is either the best or second best in every category. block? not hard, IR? not hard, lightning coil? could be done.

i think this change is more about, how to actually cast big spells and still have fluid combat, there is pretty much no change to aura reservations solely because. with this lower mana pool, clarity now takes up a SIGNIFICANTLY higher %, infact it is probably a nerf to number of auras unles you drop clarity. max out ur mana reserve, and focus on es regen, probably the way to go with this change[/spoiler]

well, some of what you say I agree with and some i dont. I think using a Lighting Coil with Evasion, Ondars and Acro+PhaseAcro is significantly stronger than a caster using a Cloak with EB AA, like a whole other world of stronger, a truly vast difference. Pure armour + endurance with max block, stronger, as you say when you have an aegis there maybe the highest mitigation possible. Thats fairly hard to actually do now days, max block, but I guess it still happens and with Rumis you sort of dont need max block you just flask for those moments when you know shits about to go down. So for me, armour has stonger setups, significantly strong, evasion has significantly stronger setups, and armour + evasion together is also out of control crazy.

you say afk is limited to aegis and AA, heres a vid of a 2H build using armour and evasion with no block, no flasks

http://www.twitch.tv/64521xw2/b/650915891

theres no way in hell any Cloak Of Defiance AA character can take damage like that, I have a legacy cloak lvl25 AA + devotion and inner force witch, she cant do this, cant even come close, she would die 50 times over trying to stand around in the sort of damage levels that char can just sleep through. This is a 2H build with no block, no lightning coil, you add a coil to a setup like that, add a shield with block and 1500 armour etc...

I just dont see it. like you say combining MoM AA with IR etc, right, but thats not defense just given to you by AA and MoM. My caster arc witch runs discipline, clarity, pol and herald of thunder, now I could drop the herald, I still wouldnt be able to run Grace, I couldnt possibly run the lvl25 AA buffed with IF etc if I didnt have discipline and clarity, how do I run Grace and still have enough free mana to make MoM usable? Its not an option to layer Grace and IR with COD MoM EB AA for the vast majority of caster builds. Most of them have cloak, disc+clarity+a purity+maybe a herald and then AA on top.

When you look at just AA + MoM on a build like that, its absolutely crap compared to the alternatives that other builds like attack builds are getting. The quote

"AA is a superb defence if you build around it, and its synergy with MoM for dealing with massive spike dmg was absurd"

I dont think its true, I dont see how it can be true when I have one of the most extreme MoM AA setups you can have and even if I stick a lvl4 empower into my lvl21AA in my +2 cold gems sceptre running around with a legacy cloak my damage mitigation compared to all my melee builds, all my bow builds, all my cast on crit builds etc is awful, truly awful its literally the weakest out of any character I have except my trapper. Ok if you make characters that layer MoM + AA with lots of other defenses then it can get good, but I dont think those are as easy to layer with others as stuff like armour, evasion etc at all. You need a massive mana pool, you need tons of mana regen to get an IF buffed lvl25/26 AA running, you need to have room for a 60% aura and then not run it because you have to have that free mana for MoM, its way more demanding than most other sets of defenses.

Even then, the idea of the thread and what people are saying is the MoM + AA is too good, but comapred to coil + ev its crap, compared to armour + block its crap, compared to armour + evasion its crap, so that statement cant be made to hold true and have things nerfed on the assumption its true when you then say well ok its actually crap, but when you layer it with this other stuff its good. They cant take an axe to EB in the name of MoM+AA being op when those 2 alone are some of the most shit defenses I use in this game, and I have an awful lot of characters doing an awful lot of things, its not like this is me comparing it to 1 or 2 other builds.

MoM+AA are overused, the reason they are overused is because spells scale with gem level. Nothing to do with MoM+AA, spells scale with gem level, fire prolif is retarded, these are the reasons people roll spell casters and then find themselves in a position where MoM+AA through Cloak Of D is the only realistic option for them thats decent, solid defense given their budget and the gear situation in temp leagues. If the situation was reversed and spells scaled from weapons and attacks scaled from gems, no one would be saying ok, well dps in a new league says play attacks but MoM+AA is so much stronger than this evasion coil setup im forced to run as an attacker that I just have to roll spellcaster even though its a DansGame RNG fest trying to find a good weapon to get dps. Well, maybe they would given the amount of people who say MoM+AA is the strongest defense in the game but its my belief that those people are largely ignorant of the sort of defenses on the table for ranger, duelist and marauder builds with the current tree.[/quote]

If i were to vote for poe president or prime minister that sets policy making in balance etc i'd vote for you buddy.

Many people (including some alpha testers) are commenting on this change as if it is mostly cosmetic. This, if I'm not mistaken, is not just a visual cue of how much ES transforms to mana with EB. It transforms life (from the previous MOM passive) to ES.
We need more info on the other mechanical changes regarding this..

And how are we supposed to fuel high mana cost skills that require 250+ regen?

run around and wait until it recharges?
waste gem slot and points to Ghost reaver? (some mana heavy skills cant leech for the player)
ZO no solution unless heavy invested in life regen and ES

I know you know what you are doing, but my impression, being a conservative player, is negative

I want to share a few thoughts of my own. I have read only a third of what was said so I might repeat something already said, sorry in advance.

Poe has proven that there is potential in everything and people find a way to use very mechanic. I am sure there will be people who would be able to abuse the new *probably* EB. But at what cost?

If the biggest problem is running AA+MOM, add a downside to Mom or AA ....
Since AA leaves cold, add something like "When you lose huge bits of mana abruptly (dmg on the mind :D) ...chance to get a brain freeze (stunned)" Since US is on the far side of the tree, the investment to avoid this would be huge (or you will lose neck slot etc). This would quite nerf the "God-forsaken" combo mom+aa.

Pls stop about using clarity with the upcoming Eb. Clarity won't be needed coz with 99-100% mana reserved, who cares about mana regen(es regen is important).
Also read some comments about LL EB...think a little pls.