A potential change I'm keen to hear your thoughts on

Not every build can use a claw as main or instead of a shield

Aesthetically the es on the mana looks horrible...

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solwitch wrote:

Aesthetically the es on the mana looks horrible...

I second that

The change would be nice, if they reduced skill cost/increased base mana and base mana regen/added more decent mana clusters.
This way EB wouldn't be mandatory for every caster build anymore.

If someone wants to use more auras, he could reserve all his mana and cast with energy shield (at the cost of no life regen because of ZO, or no life leech because of GR), if someone wants to run AA, he would need to invest into a few clusters of mana.

I think it would increase build diversity.

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andkamen wrote:

Not every build can use a claw as main or instead of a shield

Certainly not. Each build a would have to approach the change differently. The primary build type that I think would not want a claw also would likely have a tree that is near the skill tree passive. (Bow and spell user)

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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maoster wrote:

AA is a superb defence if you build around it, and its synergy with MoM for dealing with massive spike dmg was absurd,

I completely disagree. I have an arc witch running a legacy COD with a level25 AA + Inner Force + Devotion and its pretty terrible defense wise compared to the majority of my other characters. Voidbearers are literally the 1 mob in the game it deals with better, against everything else its just weak. I have 1 char with weaker defense and probably about 15 that are in a different league when it comes to dealing with damage.

well considering half the builds these days are please die b4 you hit me, some defence is better than none, even things like, fakner a perfectly viable atziri spec have less defence than a mom AA char.

and seeing as mom AA is supposed to supplement spell casters, unless you are like... incinerate or flame surge, its not like you even get hit often.

AA deals with small hits, pretty much all trash cant break AA if you have a tiny bit of armour. mom to dealw ith big hits which shouldnt be hitting you often.


how about we do defensive comparison

MoM AA(with motlen shield, or perhaps ir grace): very high effective hp, most mana/es&hp nodes give just as much hp as pure hp nodes. immune to almost all fire dmg, and 85% of trash in the game.

pure evasion with acro: avg effective hp, almost purely immune to phys of all types, regular defence vs spells, normally uses lightning coil to help mitigate rare big hits of physical

pure armour: 30k+ armour regular hp, normal defence vs spells, still gets fistedby map kole/brutus

evasion, block: similar to pure evasion, sightly better at dealing with spells thanks to spell block

armour, block(most likely aegis): probably highest dmg mitigation of all builds, 75% of everything doesnt even hit, instead regening es

massive hp regen(most likely rf): high hp, ridiculous regen if using ruubby, can also use mom&AA, grace aswell if desired


all builds die if get hit by vaal smash. builds that can afk tank things are limited to aegis and AA, AA being inferior, mom has arguably the highest effective hp of all builds except perhaps rf, vs big physical hits light coil/armour then mom AA then everything else.

mom AA is almost the best defence since it can be used with almost everything else, and even stand alone is either the best or second best in every category. block? not hard, IR? not hard, lightning coil? could be done.

i think this change is more about, how to actually cast big spells and still have fluid combat, there is pretty much no change to aura reservations solely because. with this lower mana pool, clarity now takes up a SIGNIFICANTLY higher %, infact it is probably a nerf to number of auras unles you drop clarity. max out ur mana reserve, and focus on es regen, probably the way to go with this change

@maoster:

"

pure evasion with acro: avg effective hp, almost purely immune to phys of all types, regular defence vs spells, normally uses lightning coil to help mitigate rare big hits of physical

way above regular defence vs spells since it can get 45% spell dodge, immune to all projectiles pretty much, and if with gg gear and topaz up it can tank a vaal slam.

Has higher mitigation from big hits than aa and just block/evades most of the smaller hits.

So how is mom/aa better that pure evasion/dodge/coil?

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Mark_GGG wrote:

In all other respects, ES behaves exactly the same - it still has the refresh mechanic, and anything that references ES still applies to ES.

What effect will the new EB have on Righteous Fire spellcasters?

Will it still include it ES into the damage?

I still don't understand why they aren't considering just nerfing EB to like 50% of ES gained as mana or something. The mechanic is elegant as it is and enjoyable seeing the mana bulb surge.

Considering most of these keystones convert things entirely (CI converts HP to chaos immunity, or Evasion to Armor, or Blood Magic, etc) this will be overly complicated and doesn't jive with the rest of the keystones.

I really think they should just put a penalty on the conversion. Also, MoM/AA was really only OP when Block was easy to cap. Without Block, MoM/AA is average at best. Yes, the cost is low, but it is far less powerful than stacked armor + block and evade/acro/coil.

Not really sure why they feel the need to change this, it's in a good place now. With a slight nerf to the ES conversion you'd raise the cost to a probably acceptable level.

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maoster wrote:

Spoiler

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

"

maoster wrote:

AA is a superb defence if you build around it, and its synergy with MoM for dealing with massive spike dmg was absurd,

I completely disagree. I have an arc witch running a legacy COD with a level25 AA + Inner Force + Devotion and its pretty terrible defense wise compared to the majority of my other characters. Voidbearers are literally the 1 mob in the game it deals with better, against everything else its just weak. I have 1 char with weaker defense and probably about 15 that are in a different league when it comes to dealing with damage.

well considering half the builds these days are please die b4 you hit me, some defence is better than none, even things like, fakner a perfectly viable atziri spec have less defence than a mom AA char.

and seeing as mom AA is supposed to supplement spell casters, unless you are like... incinerate or flame surge, its not like you even get hit often.

AA deals with small hits, pretty much all trash cant break AA if you have a tiny bit of armour. mom to dealw ith big hits which shouldnt be hitting you often.


how about we do defensive comparison

MoM AA(with motlen shield, or perhaps ir grace): very high effective hp, most mana/es&hp nodes give just as much hp as pure hp nodes. immune to almost all fire dmg, and 85% of trash in the game.

pure evasion with acro: avg effective hp, almost purely immune to phys of all types, regular defence vs spells, normally uses lightning coil to help mitigate rare big hits of physical

pure armour: 30k+ armour regular hp, normal defence vs spells, still gets fistedby map kole/brutus

evasion, block: similar to pure evasion, sightly better at dealing with spells thanks to spell block

armour, block(most likely aegis): probably highest dmg mitigation of all builds, 75% of everything doesnt even hit, instead regening es

massive hp regen(most likely rf): high hp, ridiculous regen if using ruubby, can also use mom&AA, grace aswell if desired


all builds die if get hit by vaal smash. builds that can afk tank things are limited to aegis and AA, AA being inferior, mom has arguably the highest effective hp of all builds except perhaps rf, vs big physical hits light coil/armour then mom AA then everything else.

mom AA is almost the best defence since it can be used with almost everything else, and even stand alone is either the best or second best in every category. block? not hard, IR? not hard, lightning coil? could be done.

i think this change is more about, how to actually cast big spells and still have fluid combat, there is pretty much no change to aura reservations solely because. with this lower mana pool, clarity now takes up a SIGNIFICANTLY higher %, infact it is probably a nerf to number of auras unles you drop clarity. max out ur mana reserve, and focus on es regen, probably the way to go with this change

well, some of what you say I agree with and some i dont. I think using a Lighting Coil with Evasion, Ondars and Acro+PhaseAcro is significantly stronger than a caster using a Cloak with EB AA, like a whole other world of stronger, a truly vast difference. Pure armour + endurance with max block, stronger, as you say when you have an aegis there maybe the highest mitigation possible. Thats fairly hard to actually do now days, max block, but I guess it still happens and with Rumis you sort of dont need max block you just flask for those moments when you know shits about to go down. So for me, armour has stonger setups, significantly strong, evasion has significantly stronger setups, and armour + evasion together is also out of control crazy.

you say afk is limited to aegis and AA, heres a vid of a 2H build using armour and evasion with no block, no flasks

http://www.twitch.tv/64521xw2/b/650915891

theres no way in hell any Cloak Of Defiance AA character can take damage like that, I have a legacy cloak lvl25 AA + devotion and inner force witch, she cant do this, cant even come close, she would die 50 times over trying to stand around in the sort of damage levels that char can just sleep through. This is a 2H build with no block, no lightning coil, you add a coil to a setup like that, add a shield with block and 1500 armour etc...

I just dont see it. like you say combining MoM AA with IR etc, right, but thats not defense just given to you by AA and MoM. My caster arc witch runs discipline, clarity, pol and herald of thunder, now I could drop the herald, I still wouldnt be able to run Grace, I couldnt possibly run the lvl25 AA buffed with IF etc if I didnt have discipline and clarity, how do I run Grace and still have enough free mana to make MoM usable? Its not an option to layer Grace and IR with COD MoM EB AA for the vast majority of caster builds. Most of them have cloak, disc+clarity+a purity+maybe a herald and then AA on top.

When you look at just AA + MoM on a build like that, its absolutely crap compared to the alternatives that other builds like attack builds are getting. The quote

"AA is a superb defence if you build around it, and its synergy with MoM for dealing with massive spike dmg was absurd"

I dont think its true, I dont see how it can be true when I have one of the most extreme MoM AA setups you can have and even if I stick a lvl4 empower into my lvl21AA in my +2 cold gems sceptre running around with a legacy cloak my damage mitigation compared to all my melee builds, all my bow builds, all my cast on crit builds etc is awful, truly awful its literally the weakest out of any character I have except my trapper. Ok if you make characters that layer MoM + AA with lots of other defenses then it can get good, but I dont think those are as easy to layer with others as stuff like armour, evasion etc at all. You need a massive mana pool, you need tons of mana regen to get an IF buffed lvl25/26 AA running, you need to have room for a 60% aura and then not run it because you have to have that free mana for MoM, its way more demanding than most other sets of defenses.

Even then, the idea of the thread and what people are saying is the MoM + AA is too good, but comapred to coil + ev its crap, compared to armour + block its crap, compared to armour + evasion its crap, so that statement cant be made to hold true and have things nerfed on the assumption its true when you then say well ok its actually crap, but when you layer it with this other stuff its good. They cant take an axe to EB in the name of MoM+AA being op when those 2 alone are some of the most shit defenses I use in this game, and I have an awful lot of characters doing an awful lot of things, its not like this is me comparing it to 1 or 2 other builds.

MoM+AA are overused, the reason they are overused is because spells scale with gem level. Nothing to do with MoM+AA, spells scale with gem level, fire prolif is retarded, these are the reasons people roll spell casters and then find themselves in a position where MoM+AA through Cloak Of D is the only realistic option for them thats decent, solid defense given their budget and the gear situation in temp leagues. If the situation was reversed and spells scaled from weapons and attacks scaled from gems, no one would be saying ok, well dps in a new league says play attacks but MoM+AA is so much stronger than this evasion coil setup im forced to run as an attacker that I just have to roll spellcaster even though its a DansGame RNG fest trying to find a good weapon to get dps. Well, maybe they would given the amount of people who say MoM+AA is the strongest defense in the game but its my belief that those people are largely ignorant of the sort of defenses on the table for ranger, duelist and marauder builds with the current tree.