A potential change I'm keen to hear your thoughts on

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Float wrote:

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Arturianos wrote:

Why take one of path of exile's most elegantly designed and iconic keystones and turn it into a clusterfuck.

If eldritch battery is too good, why not "turns ES into mana at [multiplier] effectiveness" or another clean nerf.

If cloak is the problem, why not nerf cloak and spare those of us who actually use the keystone.

this change would buff cloak. mom with 5+ auras? yes plzz! haha this suggestion is just bad.

you couldnt run aa anymore
also, youd need to invest into es regen via zealoths oath. i think that this is the way to nerf mom/aa without completly removing it

Based on my experiences playing casters, I'm quite certain that this potential change would necessitate a rebalance of spell mana costs and/or support multipliers and/or recharge mechanics and/or leech/gain mechanics.

In general, people take EB to sustain very high cost per second spell casting via ES*(%ES+%mana) double dipping. AA/MoM can synergize well with that, at the significant cost of:
- utilizing fewer auras
- focusing even more on ES, mana, and mana regen on gear and passives
- risk associated with MoM (i.e. a high damage spike can eliminate your mana pool, preventing you from utilizing escape skills, preventing you from attacking/casting (and leeching))
- large passive investment to reach nodes at opposite ends of the tree, or reliance on a unique chest with very poor defensive stats relative to high end rares, aside from MoM.

AA provides good defense against weak physical hits and against reflect for builds that utilize high cast per second low base damage fire spells. However, the defense both it and MoM provide against large physical hits and non-fire hits is minimal (relative to substituting passive/gear investment in ES, mana, and mana regen with life and life regen).

You have to be careful with what new problems you create (fundamental mechanics changes to address AA/MoM does indeed seem strange). A better way to address AA/MoM would be to provide competing defensive options for casters, perhaps by rebalancing spell costs, altering base mana regen, allowing mana pots to function for their entire duration (i.e. retention of buff even with full mana), or by increasing opportunities for mana gain (more mana gain on hit or leech passive/gear/skill mechanics that work with non-physical damage). Such changes could promote build flexibility to a point where spell users don't feel forced into EB (and, subsequently, AA/MoM).

In absence of other changes, the potential change seems extremely unfun in most obvious cases (waiting for ES recovery delay after every skill use sort of kills pacing), and extremely OP/broken with a few gear/skill/passive combinations.

Just want to reiterate that my level 25 AA that is boosted with inner force and devotion by 26% grants -307 phys damage taken per hit. Which is equivalent to only 4.3k armour. It requires 700 base ES from gear, 15 mana passives not counting EB itself, max level clarity (520 mana base cost), way over 300 int and at least 100%+ mana regen on jewelry. My build is very capable of dying.

So you're probably wondering, why even use this? BECAUSE I NEED MANA. I run incinerate with apeps rage, there's no way I'd be able to sustain mana costs (let alone get the right socket colours) by taking lightning coil/acrobatics/whatever the fuck. I run infernal mantle, not CoD, so I can't take 800 auras nor do I get to take any less damage than any other caster.

AA was strong before it was nerfed, when it gave over -350 phys damage taken pre-modifiers. But it was already nerfed, very heavily. It is now simply decentish defence that supplements the ability to become reflect immune. It is not cheap, unless you're only talking about item worth in which case sure the items are cheap, doesn't mean more expensive items won't be better. It's just there for builds that otherwise would have no defenses.

Before AA existed my build relied on max block and molten shell, which was easily doable back then, in the witch tree. This was when incinerate was only just added to the game. Before CWDT existed, before devourers existed. I can tell you without a doubt my build cannot go max block anymore and I doubt devourers are going to be deleted from the game.

So if you think AA is overpowered simply because you don't use it, or you think it's too cheap, you have no clue.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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Boem wrote:

Spoiler

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

you completely misunderstand the conversation to be quite honest.


"acro/phase acro/coil/ondars guile are totally legit and viable to take with casters.

Basically your saying "yeah this method is less tanky then this method which is also perfectly viable with a caster""

no, those are not a viable investment for most casters, they do not provide the required mana regen to fuel skills and involve to be a trip into a different part of the tree. Some casters may possibly be able to spec those and run the Grace aura necessary, not many. Ive tried planning out casters that take superior defenses, you just cant do it with most of them, none of the ones Ive tried. You cna spec the nodes sure but you cant spec enough of the other things you need as well.

Casters use coils, sure, and they end up more tanky than COD users quite often, but in the vast majority of cases, all cases that I have seen, theyre not doing it while running grace and getting 11k evasion and speccing ondars and acro with phase acro and also getting 3%+ life regen and a 180% life build while getting enough mana regen to fuel themselves and the required amount of spell damage, cast speed and pen from the top of the tree to be effective dps casters.

The point being made was that EB AA MoM is not a great defense method at all, it is simply the best viable defense method for most casters and that is why it is so widely used. Its got nothing to do with "defense needs to be godly or we dont consider it", thats got absolutely nothing to do with anything and saying that tells me you have the wrong end of the stick.

The point was put forward, by many people, that EB MoM AA was the best defense method in the game and hence needed to be nerfed, we are saying thats not true, because its not true, thats all there was to it.

you are saying its enough, that its decent, that it does its job, yes absolutely, thats why I use it, thats why so many people use it, non eof us were arguing anything different in that regard.

No i am saying it will be decent even if these changes where to be implemented.

And your turning the argument around.

You stated that coil/phase acro/acro is far superior to EB/MoM/AA, so i am simply saying so use it with a caster.

That spark build i link uses it without coil. Really its not viable? That's weird my char seems to be performing perfectly acceptable even with 190% life specced in the passive tree to cover -8 rings and tabula rasa.

Putting on a 6-link coil would only push its defenses further.

And saying casters can't do it, when they are the least gear dependent of all characters since they scale of of gems is coming over as ludicrous from my point of view.

Gosh i wonder why those flameblasters where possible to use MoM/EB/AA and 75% block and spell block a patch ago, must be because they need to sacrifice so much for deeps and gear.

Yeah you need to plan your build and make sacrifices when designing it in order to be tanky and solid dps wise, gosh?

suddenly needing to make a balanced build is impossible or not worth the sacrifice?

I would simply say you don't understand the tools available to you, going of your statements of what is and is not possible with casters.

I am using a 6-link spark with 4.8 cast per sec with a phase/acro build and i still manage the mana cost with just a clarity. The end, that's it. and a freaking low intelligence base of 160 points. So it's not like i am scaling my mana true that.

Meh i am considering this discussion done. From my point of view you have not tested enough defenses and are completely ignoring skill gem based defenses if your only argument is

"AA/MOM/EB is the only viable caster defense in PoE at the moment"

It's even more of a pointless argument considering it wont even be broken with this change but whatever.

Peace, have at it,

-Boem-

absolutely nothing you just said is relevant to what I was saying, every point of mine you have 'countered' doesnt exist and you are countering something I wasnt saying at all. Spark is a build based around projectile damage, projectile speed and skill duration which are all available in the evasion corner of the tree so of course those builds can spec the other stuff in that area. Spark is not "most casters", I didnt say every caster, I said most, for MOST caster builds they have no other good options and that is why COD EB AA is so widely used, and the proof of that is the fact that it is so widely used while being weaker than the defenses attack characters in the bottom of the tree can spec.

you are literally having a disagreement with something you just made up in your own head that doesnt relate at all to the conversation taking place prior to you entering it with a responses that didnt make any sense and still doesnt make any sense. Im not turning an argument around, what you are saying has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation you started responding to.

Nods, sure man whatever, look to what i responded on page 49 and how i responded then tell me i am off base with my follow up post's where you boys are just crying nerf nerf nerf nerf.

You just go keep believing casters need EB to sustain high mana cost spells while i am roflcasting the highest 6-link cost spell in the game on a simple clarity.

And while your at it keep believing EB/MOM/AA is the only suitable defensive option for the intelligence part of the tree, not really my problem is it now?

Peace,

-Boem-

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Boem wrote:

Nods, sure man whatever, look to what i responded on page 49 and how i responded then tell me i am off base with my follow up post's where you boys are just crying nerf nerf nerf nerf.

You just go keep believing casters need EB to sustain high mana cost spells while i am roflcasting the highest 6-link cost spell in the game on a simple clarity.

And while your at it keep believing EB/MOM/AA is the only suitable defensive option for the intelligence part of the tree, not really my problem is it now?

Peace,

-Boem-

You're basically trolling by this point, you use -8 cost elreon rings so of course you're not going to have high mana costs. Then you're saying that builds that sit at the top half the tree are somehow meant to get all their base defenses from what, molten shell and grace? Block passives a tree away? AA is a terribly inefficient defense that's only really useful to avoid reflect damage. MoM is only realistically available to casters with a single chestpiece which can be easily nerfed without touching EB or AA.

I'd just like to be able to keep playing the character I've been playing since before AA even existed, to which AA is now essential because there's no way I can grab any alternate defenses now that block is gutted. And by the way did I mention that AA isn't even that good of a defense?

Ok, these are my thoughs and comprehension on the yet-to-come Eldritch Battery changes. This same feedback can be found on Forum Index->Feedback Session->My official thoughs and comprehension on the yet-to-come Eldritch Battery changes (http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1247960). I've posted it there.

“AA/MoM defence currently is too high for too low a cost” - Rory
- If the problem is MoM and AA, these things are what you should be changing and not eldritch battery.

The current Eldritch battery is a keystone that makes sense, logically-speaking. It uses the energy shield you obtain from your passive skill-tree, skills and items and converts its energy potential to your mana pool, increasing your capability to store energy, that will be used to attack and cast your abilities. This functions at the cost of dispelling your energy shield (breaking the shield and releasing its energy), making you more vulnerable to physical and elemental damage.

The NEW eldritch battery, in otherwise, has no logical sense. Your mana is stored in your body. Your energy shield is a shield made of energy that covers your entire body and protects it from harm. You can’t use this shield to provide you energy to use your abilities without firstly dispelling it. Only destroying this shield will make you able to use its energy. Your skills (and their cost of mana) does not “hurt” your mana pool (only uses it), how can your energy shield protect what is not being hurt? In other words, how can your use of mana be “protected” by a shield? How will you make an external shield protect the energy that is inside you? How can you control the energy of a shield that is not connected to your mana and, at the same time, freely convert its energy to cast spells and amplify your attacks (through the gems)?

This change can even make EB take Iron reflexes' position as the keystone that make less sense in the whole game...

- Okay, despite not making any sense to me, let’s examine what this will probably do.









Does not seem like it will make many positive changes to me.

GGG, hear your other players:

“This just ruin the primary thing people use eldritch battery for, getting super high mana regen so they can sustain extremely expensive skills”.

“Most builds constantly use mana, so the ES regen will never trigger while in battle. You will be forced to switch either your life regen or leech to your ES which greatly impacts your survivability”.

“I honestly hope that we won't see this in the final version of the game”.

“Quite handy for a summoner or aura-bot to squeeze every last bit of mana into auras as possible without having to blood-magic every active skill”.

“Regen system will be pretty restrictive (not using skills for several seconds in order to regain psuedo-mana)”.

“The more I think about it, the less I like it to be honest”.

“Recovery stop on mana expend sounds like a horrible mechanic comfort-wise”.

“Most mana intensive casters who rely on EB as defense will go away from this”.

“MoM builds will be royally screwed”.

“It'd be a nice alternative node, but I don't think it should replace the current EB”.

“Interesting concept to allow players to use their skills when under heavy attack as a MoM character but very punishing to players balancing AA, the perfect amount of mana is ~43% of your health and is already hard to achieve”.


I think there is another way to nerf MoM in conjunction with clarity without changing mechanics that much, and I think you guys can do that. I believe you should try other alternatives.

As a de-facto development manifesto, this post is severely lacking, sorry Rory.

First, can you please define the problem (EB/incinerate or flameblast? EB/other spells?). What underpins the issue, or what is the result of the mechanic you dislike? (excess atziri farming too safely? .001% of the population getting to lvl 100 too quickly?). Metrics would be useful i.e. a split of those playing EB/using CoD versus not, how effective AA is in providing defense on a standard lvl 70 or 80 casting build versus other styles of builds (armour, evasion, hybrid ES/life).

As part of that, it'd be useful to look at the reasonable alternatives for the majority of those playing caster classes. Give yourself 2 exalts, head to poe.trade with a lvl 70 skill tree and let us know your best option without EB. Boem, here's where you get to show the whole world your skills with min-maxing (noting however that min-maxing, in itself, means you don't really represent the majority... You may have to put your 'been playing for 5 minutes' hat on)

THEN we can talk about this intelligently!

As it stands, the post leads with a given and suggests to me that you intend to make fewer builds and styles playable, at least more without significant investment. Keep in mind that while this may have been discussed many times between GGG staff, we the players are not privy to discussions you have at the office...

^People are looking at this in a vacuum without a shred of faith in the GGG team.

Which is simply put stupid. Granted your point is fair, the post offers not a lot of information.

Which to me imply's more reason to wait out the beta testing before jumping to conclusions and making big hizzy fits about nerf nerf nerf.

This thread was not correctly handled by Rory, but i still appreciate the info, it just boils down to intelligence to realize this change will be accompanied with a butt-load of reworks/massive balance tweaks and what have you nots.

I am trying to look at what becomes available with this change, not what is taking away. And i see some funny new interactions and stuff becoming a reality depending on how they implement it.

At the same time i realize that MoM will still function and AA will still be possible.
(seriously, people think they will gut it without any compensation rendering a SUPPORTER UNIQUE useless? And an in house designed skill gem that is utilized frequently useless?)

People have no faith and are all to eager to lash out at GGG for no apparent reason other then assumptions coupled with a lack of faith in the game developers of whom they are playing a free game.

Could Rory have done better with this thread, lol, fuck yeah he could have.

Is the lack of information reason for a panic and hizzy fit about nerf nerf nerf, hardly. It's premature and serves no purpose other then rally the community against GGG and kill the hype.

Peace,*insert grain of salt*,

-Boem-

54 pages, and just can't bring myself to get through the MOM/AA builds dead posts...

If this was already put in here, sorry for the repeat. Otherwise, I'll just be putting this right here:



Reserve more auras and have % ES regen without being forced into Zealots Oath :)

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Nubatron wrote:

54 pages, and just can't bring myself to get through the MOM/AA builds dead posts...

If this was already put in here, sorry for the repeat. Otherwise, I'll just be putting this right here:

Reserve more auras and have % ES regen without being forced into Zealots Oath :)

Woop, a single item (which is semi-legacy too, and that's the legacy version of it) that could possible enable another build. Must be good change then.

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Boem wrote:

...

Which to me imply's more reason to wait out the beta testing before jumping to conclusions and making big hizzy fits about nerf nerf nerf.

...

Hardly the case here. He wanted to hear our thoughts on it (with the information we currently have, right?) and we delivered. It would be a terrible change based on what knowledge we have.