[1.2] KuteKitteh’s Tanky Arcer, 20k+ Effective DPS, Atziri/HC-viable. Poor-man’s BM Arc included

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HoosTrax wrote:

Anyone tried respeccing the five passive points in the lightning wheel into one of the other elemental wheels, for a change of pace?

I like to do Lunaris 3 runs from time to time, and using the fire wheel + fire Doryani belt + incinerate/LMP seems to be a lot quicker at Piety. I don't have an ice Doryani, so I haven't tried the ice spear version yet.

I have thought of this but i do not believe that simply changing those 5points alone is enough to play a proper alternative build. What i mean is for example you went for incinerate, but to play incinerate properly u should really change more then just the 5points and one gem for another (assuming this is what u meant). This being the main reason why i have not tried it myself yet. With further alterations to the tree gear/gems i do believe u can change this into effective cold/fire version but not by only switching the 5wheel points.

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Taiberius wrote:

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KuteKitteh wrote:

Thanks for the feedback and support guys. Although I've been pretty busy lately with work and classes, I've had some time to work on a side project that is essentially an arc-incinerate hybrid build.
...snip...
Stay tuned for some interesting build overhauls!

@KuteKitteh - I'm approaching the lvl 90 burn-out on the tanky Arcer, are you still gonna do a hybrid or incinerate build? And/or do you have any tanky incinerate builds you'd recommend?

Thanks.
Tai

This iam nearly 90 too and iam looking forward to build overhaul or recommendations for other builds!

Hey there,

Build looks cool, I wanted to do an Arcer but was wondering how to have decent defense as well. Just a few questions for anyone that has played this build:

-Does max spell block really matter much in terms of normal mapping and not Atziri, with maxed resists? I'm thinking that huge damage spells you can usually dodge manually. The only exception would be perhaps EK or Bear Traps (can you block Bear Traps??) but those are uncommon. I've never played a block build so I have no idea.

-Why take the Alira reward in Cruel when you have open 4% cast speed nodes right at the beginning? Getting that passive would probably help with leveling/progress

-Since you invested in Lightning and some cast speed, would it make sense to use a Storm Call Totem instead to help with Single Target DPS?

Thanks!

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PhoeniXSkye wrote:

Hey there,

Build looks cool, I wanted to do an Arcer but was wondering how to have decent defense as well. Just a few questions for anyone that has played this build:

-Does max spell block really matter much in terms of normal mapping and not Atziri, with maxed resists? I'm thinking that huge damage spells you can usually dodge manually. The only exception would be perhaps EK or Bear Traps (can you block Bear Traps??) but those are uncommon. I've never played a block build so I have no idea.

-Why take the Alira reward in Cruel when you have open 4% cast speed nodes right at the beginning? Getting that passive would probably help with leveling/progress

-Since you invested in Lightning and some cast speed, would it make sense to use a Storm Call Totem instead to help with Single Target DPS?

Thanks!

Yes max spell block makes a HUGE difference even in lower lvl mapping. Maxed resists dont really mean all that much its something u have to have pretty much always. As for dodging spells, i rly dont move for anything coming my way when playing this build, ofc there is exceptions... vaal oversoul smash lol.
Almost all my other chars has struggled with ek/beartrap exile but this one doesnt feel it at all despite 0 armor, you cant dodge/evade/block any traps.

Aliras reward is 4% castspeed for one point, this is something u have very limited access to in the tree and i wouldnt recommend for you to skip taking it. i currently have all 3 of those 4% nodes that u have in tree and if i sacrificed my alira reward i would get something crappy for it.

Finally i very much doubt that storm call can even begin to compete with flame totem for singletarget dps. Keep in mind that all your invested points are not lightning infact there is more into spelldmg than there is into lightning spelldmg. Not to mention that flame totem would be reaping the benefits of castspeed alot better too and you can have an added lightning damage gem to your flame totem that will scale fully with your invested points. Long story short i doubt theres a better way to go for singletarget damage unless you want to use beartraps or something funky like that but why would you when all your points are focused on caster nodes and none on phys.

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Xantium wrote:

Aliras reward is 4% castspeed for one point, this is something u have very limited access to in the tree and i wouldnt recommend for you to skip taking it. i currently have all 3 of those 4% nodes that u have in tree and if i sacrificed my alira reward i would get something crappy for it.

Thanks for your response, just a note on this though, I was referring to the OP's tree that was linked, where the 3/3/6 cluster were taken and thus the 4/4/4 at the beginning were still open. Your point is valid though if you were planning to take both those clusters.

Oh and I never used Flame Totem before, but wouldn't Fire Pen be a better 4L than Added Damage?

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PhoeniXSkye wrote:

Oh and I never used Flame Totem before, but wouldn't Fire Pen be a better 4L than Added Damage?

Assumptions made:
- additional damage only comes from +spell damage, not elemental
- values below represent only FPen vs ACD, not the entire 4L setup (absolute values change, but the ratios remain the same)

L20 Added Chaos: 161-242 * 0.2 dmg effectiveness = 40.3 average additonal Chaos damage
L20 FirePen: 35% resistance pierced
L20 Flame Totem: 61-92 (76.5 average Fire damage)

75% resistance:
FPen setup deals 76.5 * 0.60 = 45.9 Fire damage per hit
ACD setup deals 76.5 * 0.25 = 19.1 Fire damage per hit plus 40.3 Chaos damage per hit (Total 59.4)

0% resistance:
FPen setup deals 76.5 * 1.35 = 103.3 Fire damage per hit
ACD setup deals 76.5 + 40.3 = 116.8 Fire/Chaos damage per hit

So for both ends of the spectrum, ACD generally adds more damage than FPen. Exceptions for this case would be:
1 - Fire AND Chaos resistant mobs
2 - Elemental damage is a very significant amount of your total spell damage (notably, Doryani's Catalyst users will run into this problem)

Of course to cover all bases you can run FPen, let's wait for KuteKitteh to weigh in on this.

Hey guys, sorry I haven't been able to update the guide or respond to questions. The internet at my place has been down a lot and ITS is taking their sweet time fixing it, so I haven't been able to work on my arc-incinerate hybrid. Also I've been bogged down with classes and study and life in general. Thanks to everyone who's answering questions in the thread!

For those who are interested in the build modifications that I was planning on, it is as follows. I will put the complete writeup in the main post if I can actually get some time to work on the build.

Concept: Arc is a strong medium-long range clear spell due to its chaining properties, and its primary weakness is its horrible single-target DPS, which I attempted to fix by using dual curse. Arc suffers diminishing returns after the 5th gem, and putting Arc on a Geofri can substitute for that extra link. Incinerate provides amazing single-target DPS and CQC DPS provided the build is tanky enough to stay stationary for that long. Incinerate is extremely strong on a 6L due to its projectile nature as well as its broken damage effectiveness.

Therefore, using Arc-Incinerate Hybrid should hypothetically get us the best of both worlds by giving two spells that are polar opposites - one is a long-range chaining lightning spell, while the other is a short-ranged pierce-projectile fire spell. By utilizing both of these spells, the build increases in DPS versatility.


Special gear is as follows:
Rathpith
Stone of Lazhwar
Tabula or any other 6-link
Geofri's Crest

Gems are as follows:
4L Geo:
Arc + FC + SE + LPen

5/6L chest:
Incinerate + FC + SE + FPen + GMP/LMP + Added Chaos
I usually use LMP for better DPS on rare/unique mobs.

3L: CWDT + EC + IC
4L: TS + LL + ML + RM
3L: Clarity + Haste + RM
Side note, I still can't pick between Haste and HoI here. HoI is more of a defensive option, I guess. Once Herald of Thunder/Lightning is released, I may switch over to Clarity + HoI + HoL/T + RM instead, but as of now Haste is the better option.

Others: AA, Lightning Warp + RD, EW

Dual-curse was dropped because Incinerate fixes the single-target DPS issues with the build.
Arc is for:
-enemies that are spread out
-fighting at a distance (e.g. Torture chamber boss)
-getting some quick and efficient life leech
-staying mobile

Incinerate is for:
-single-target DPS in CQC (versus stationary rare and unique mobs)
-extremely dense packs of mobs (e.g. carrion swarmers)

I would say the build is pretty effective in clearing for a tank build because it combines two of the strongest spells to minimize DPS-related weaknesses.

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consca wrote:

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PhoeniXSkye wrote:

Oh and I never used Flame Totem before, but wouldn't Fire Pen be a better 4L than Added Damage?

Assumptions made:
- additional damage only comes from +spell damage, not elemental
- values below represent only FPen vs ACD, not the entire 4L setup (absolute values change, but the ratios remain the same)

L20 Added Chaos: 161-242 * 0.2 dmg effectiveness = 40.3 average additonal Chaos damage
L20 FirePen: 35% resistance pierced
L20 Flame Totem: 61-92 (76.5 average Fire damage)

75% resistance:
FPen setup deals 76.5 * 0.60 = 45.9 Fire damage per hit
ACD setup deals 76.5 * 0.25 = 19.1 Fire damage per hit plus 40.3 Chaos damage per hit (Total 59.4)

Thanks for the analysis, much easier to determine when you have the maths!

To factor in Elemental Damage increases, it's a simple addition of a multiplier to your equations. Basically the breakpoint of +Ele% where Fire Pen is better can be calculated as follows, using your 75% equation:

76.5*(.60)*(Ele) = 76.5*(0.25)*(Ele)+40.3

Ths breakpoint is ~50 +Ele% damage, so if you have more than that from the tree and/or equipment, you're better off with Fire Pen than ACD. Note that in the OP's lvl 90 tree there is +72 Ele%.

Against Added Lightening Damage, which adds an average of 25.1 per hit at lvl 20, but is strengthened by +Ele and +Light damage, the equation to solve for the breakpoint becomes more complicated (but we can factor out Ele damage), since we have to take into account both Fire and Light Res of the mob. Assuming 75% res to both:

76.5*(.60) = 76.5*(0.25)+25.1*(Light)*(0.25)

Added Lightening will be better at ~330 +Light% damage. The OP's tree has +99 Light%. However, the less Light Res the mob has, the lower this breakpoint becomes, which would come into play if we're dual cursing with Conduct+EW. If a mob had 0 res for light and fire, the breakpoint would become less than 10 +Light% damage.

Seems like Fire Pen would always be a better choice than Added Chaos taking the elemental damage bonuses into effect, but Added Lightening Damage would be even better since this build dual curses with Conductivity and already has +Light% damage nodes.

I've been playing this build since 1.2 quite successfully, and now interested in the incinerate variant. Just a couple of questions:

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KuteKitteh wrote:

5/6L chest:
Incinerate + FC + SE + FP + GMP/LMP + Added Chaos

Is FP here fire penetration or faster projectiles?

Should Geofri's have lightning penetration, or would empower L2/3 be how efficient?

Thanks for the both versions of the build!