Spectal Throw is not in line with melee

Reading the last page I think some are making stuff overly complex.

When defining ranged or melee, look at the basic skills instead of skills heavily changed by passives and supports (like a crazy AoE effect that makes your GS reach the end of the screen)

Skills like Cleave are melee skills with a direct AoE (your melee attack cleaves multiple enemies), skills like GS are melee skills with an indirect AoE (Your melee attack causes an AoE shockwave) and skills like LS are melee skills with a ranged effect on hit (Your melee attack fires projectiles on hit)

None of these are ranged skills like ST should be, LS has a ranged effect though.

Right now ST is like a ranged melee skill that makes no sense. The differense between GS and ST is that the basic skill is completely different. You have to distinguish AoE from ranged.
AoE is obviously an effect of something else while ranged skills typically use projectiles or spells

"

Startkabels wrote:

Right now ST is like a ranged melee skill that makes no sense. The differense between GS and ST is that the basic skill is completely different. You have to distinguish AoE from ranged.
AoE is obviously an effect of something else while ranged skills typically use projectiles or spells

It does sense, as long as it is in line with other skills. Yes, you attack from afar, so what? If damage is weak, or another drawbacks are applied, it MAKES sense.

Attacking from afar can make some fights easier even if you lose a lot of DPS. But when almost ALL fights become easier with ST, then obviously ST is OP and requires nerf, plain and simple.

I define a melee skill as anything that works with melee passives and supports. ST does not worth with those. Cleave and lightning strike do so they're melee skills.

"

kasub wrote:

I define a melee skill as anything that works with melee passives and supports. ST does not worth with those. Cleave and lightning strike do so they're melee skills.

The initial physical strike of it being impacted by melee skills/supports/mods, the projectiles it creates being impacted by ranged+lightning skills/supports/mods*



edit - when not counting the physical to elemental conversion attribute of the sparks it makes which also allow it to benefit in some measure from melee nodes

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

It does sense, as long as it is in line with other skills. Yes, you attack from afar, so what? If damage is weak, or another drawbacks are applied, it MAKES sense.

Attacking from afar can make some fights easier even if you lose a lot of DPS. But when almost ALL fights become easier with ST, then obviously ST is OP and requires nerf, plain and simple.

Except is not in line with melee just because the damage is not weak and there are no drawbacks.

I don't see how a flat nerf would help anything, that wouldn't make ST more inline with other skills at all. ST should not be nerfed because it's in theory a good skill, although it should fundamentally change and shift away from melee.

My opinion is still that ST should be removed and introduced later together with throwing weapons.
Haven't seen any other good suggestions honestly...

"

Startkabels wrote:

Except is not in line with melee just because the damage is not weak and there are no drawbacks.

Nerfing skill = adding drawblacks to it. And i dont mean damage drawbacks only, these may be less attack speed drawbacks, or range drawbacks, etc. Why do you think this wont help? If you want to make game mechanics more boring, then sorry, i'm against it. ST is a unique skill, why remove it, if you can just fix it?
You should remove only things that CANT be balanced. An example - maximum resists mechanic. In my opinion, it should be removes completely, as there is no way to make it balanced ever (because of crazy increasing returns).

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

"

Startkabels wrote:

Except is not in line with melee just because the damage is not weak and there are no drawbacks.

Nerfing skill = adding drawblacks to it. And i dont mean damage drawbacks only, these may be less attack speed drawbacks, or range drawbacks, etc. Why do you think this wont help? If you want to make game mechanics more boring, then sorry, i'm against it. ST is a unique skill, why remove it, if you can just fix it?
You should remove only things that CANT be balanced. An example - maximum resists mechanic. In my opinion, it should be removes completely, as there is no way to make it balanced ever (because of crazy increasing returns).

It could help but you're talking about general drawbacks that will affect anyone who uses the skill while leaving the underlying design intact. The design that takes your melee attack and makes it ranged and that is not inline with melee.

You see, reading your motivations, you still seem to approach this from a "ST is OP" perspective while I want to make ST inline with melee whether it is OP or not.

If been trying to explain that it's not only that ST is not inline with melee but also not with the concept of "meaningful choices" since using ST is not a meaningful choice at all. It's an open choice for anybody.

Don't get my wrong: Nerfing ST could address this too but not an ideal solution in my opinion.

Hello GGG, when are you finally going to improve melee skills man.

You keep buffing ranged now with that new support Echo and recently that nice fire spell. You know I don't give a flying fuck about 1.1.5 as long as I don't see any improvements for melee. I haven't been playing this game for months now because of this.

For god's sake do something about melee, improve existing skills and introduce new ones. Focus on melee and stop expanding ranged. Ranged already has 10 times the build variety melee has and melee is still too weak.

Do something about Elemental Hit - Give it a proper animation or something. And buff it.

Improve Reave which totally sucks at low level, it causes more desync than hits in my experience and the stacking AoE doesn't make any sense in the light of ST.

Do something about the mandatory ST for melee builds.

Do something about the mandatoriness of RT and IR and all those life nodes for the Marauder/Duelist/Templar, this is totally ruining build variety.

Introduce more AoE options for melee builds.

Make it worth is to spec into shields.

Make it worth to spec into weapons as melee, keep going with combining offensive and defensive nodes. The first steps was only the beginning, you need to continue with that. Keep adjusting the tree, make it more compact.

And please do something about the Templar tree instead of letting him rot in the gutter, because honestly a life based melee Templar is one big pigeon hole in my opinion.

Jeeezzz

came here just to say this, if you really think melee is bad (dual wield or 2h), you havent tried groundslam, dual strike, cyclone, reave and double strike

ive played ground slam this league on ambush it was just fine got 20k armor good 2h mace could faceroll all but elemental damage , its not that melee is bad by any strech its more that you see super expensive builds that use ST, such as the infamous lowlife daggerthrow bullshit build.

if you dont believe that melee is powerfull please do check out exaltons dual strike 10k es immune to any and all damage leech 6k energy shield per second build, or make a groundslammer or make a max block cyclone. all these builds are fairly cheap and powerfull.

tldr: just because you cant afford atziri's acuity + shavvs + COE + super GG weapons doesnt mean that a build that does use these items is better beacause it uses ST.

ps, try using the double melee phys + multi strike CI wombocombo and faceroll all the things