Spectal Throw is not in line with melee

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Charan wrote:

reduce the abuse of Spectral Throw as a CoCS catalyst.

wait...what

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Boem wrote:

it would actually make some sense to make the skill a blue gem with intel/str requirements and then limit it to staffs and elemental scepters.

As in magically creating the spectral version of the weapon you are holding and forcing it outwards (like more of a caster's ability).

This would buff the use of staffs and elemental maces, god knows they could use that.

Peace,

-Boem-

It would make sense at least.
Or maybe adding a delay to create the spectral image, before it's thrown away ? Delay that could be reduced by .... inc cast time :). We'd have a hybrid attack/spell in a way.
Having it half spell/half attack would "solve" the CoC problem with it, but it may not be meant to be like this in the code.
Adding a delay should be possible I guess however.

I think we shouldn't make it overly complex and want to simplify this problem instead.

Why don't people complain about Power Siphon and bow skills for example?

I think the answer is easy: Power Siphon and bow skills are very restricted, namely to wands and bows. This is a meaningful choice that players will have to make. With this choice they will limit their selves to those weapons.

With ST this isn't the case at all, you can throw any weapon. So ST is not restricted at all.

I want to stay with my previous conclusion that ST needs to be removed and introduced later in combination with throwing weapons. Changing ST to only work with those weapons.

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Startkabels wrote:

I think we shouldn't make it overly complex and want to simplify this problem instead.

Why don't people complain about Power Siphon and bow skills for example?

I think the answer is easy: Power Siphon and bow skills are very restricted, namely to wands and bows. This is a meaningful choice that players will have to make. With this choice they will limit their selves to those weapons.

With ST this isn't the case at all, you can throw any weapon. So ST is not restricted at all.

I want to stay with my previous conclusion that ST needs to be removed and introduced later in combination with throwing weapons. Changing ST to only work with those weapons.

There are other skills, that can be used with any melee weapon - Double Strike or Lightning Strike, for example. Frenzy can be used with ANY weapon (both ranged, melee) or even unarmed. Still, i dont see complains about them. Maybe, because those are weaker?

Well the difference is quite obvious, I was talking about other ranged skills not melee skills or semi melee skills like those.

BTW what you said is not really true is it? Nobody uses those skills with wands and bows do they? It's because they're melee skills and mainly used with melee weapons. Even if you can use those skills with wands and bows, nobody does it because there are a lot of skills that are way more potent with those weapons.

I really feel that I keep repeating myself over and over but again ST is not a melee skill and at least ST should be a weaker option for melee builds.

What is the differnce between "melee" and "ranged" in ARPG anyway.

I have never seen anybody draw a line that actually makes sense.

No skill has a range of 0. All skills are ranged.

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Veruski wrote:

What is the differnce between "melee" and "ranged" in ARPG anyway.

Usually people use "melee" to talk about two things:
- Using a melee weapon/taking passives that have melee in their description
- Being under ~20 distance (default attack with a weapon is 10) from the enemy.

"Ranged" means:
- Using a ranged weapon (wand or bow) or casting most spells
- Being above ~60 range (distance from character to top of screen) from the enemy.

There has been endless confusion ITT and otherwise from people reading the wrong definition of the word in different circumstances. I do really wish that people would talk about things like gear, tree, supports, and effective skill distance instead of using "melee"/"ranged" to comment on the combination of all of those things.

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In pure distance definitions, "melee" skills include Molten Shell, Dual Strike, Heavy Strike, Flicker Strike, and others. "Ranged" includes all bow skills, Ice Spear, Fireball, and the like. There are a few that fit "somewhere in between" like Ice Nova, Shock Nova, Sweep, Ground Slam, Cleave, Reave.

ST is very close to "ranged", or in that "somewhere in between" distance. With projectile speed increases, it's obviously the former; with projectile speed reductions, it's obviously the latter.

Generally, people have the expectation that if you're getting close to enemies (increasing your risk) then you should have a damage advantage (increasing your reward).

Characters with melee weapons have several skill options, and most of those are in the "melee"/"inbetween" distances. ST and LS are the only usable "ranged" attacks. Contrary to expectations, ST has the least risk with comparable or higher reward than the "melee"/"inbetween" attacks.

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Veruski wrote:

What is the differnce between "melee" and "ranged" in ARPG anyway.

I have never seen anybody draw a line that actually makes sense.

No skill has a range of 0. All skills are ranged.

The creation of a particle that has its own hotbox and movement tracking that can move a distance from your character's own hitbox

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Jiero wrote:

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Veruski wrote:

What is the differnce between "melee" and "ranged" in ARPG anyway.

I have never seen anybody draw a line that actually makes sense.

No skill has a range of 0. All skills are ranged.

The creation of a particle that has its own hotbox and movement tracking that can move a distance from your character's own hitbox

So...Cleave?

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pneuma wrote:

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Veruski wrote:

What is the differnce between "melee" and "ranged" in ARPG anyway.

Usually people use "melee" to talk about two things:
- Using a melee weapon/taking passives that have melee in their description
- Being under ~20 distance (default attack with a weapon is 10) from the enemy.

"Ranged" means:
- Using a ranged weapon (wand or bow) or casting most spells
- Being above ~60 range (distance from character to top of screen) from the enemy.

There has been endless confusion ITT and otherwise from people reading the wrong definition of the word in different circumstances. I do really wish that people would talk about things like gear, tree, supports, and effective skill distance instead of using "melee"/"ranged" to comment on the combination of all of those things.

---

In pure distance definitions, "melee" skills include Molten Shell, Dual Strike, Heavy Strike, Flicker Strike, and others. "Ranged" includes all bow skills, Ice Spear, Fireball, and the like. There are a few that fit "somewhere in between" like Ice Nova, Shock Nova, Sweep, Ground Slam, Cleave, Reave.

ST is very close to "ranged", or in that "somewhere in between" distance. With projectile speed increases, it's obviously the former; with projectile speed reductions, it's obviously the latter.

Generally, people have the expectation that if you're getting close to enemies (increasing your risk) then you should have a damage advantage (increasing your reward).

Characters with melee weapons have several skill options, and most of those are in the "melee"/"inbetween" distances. ST and LS are the only usable "ranged" attacks. Contrary to expectations, ST has the least risk with comparable or higher reward than the "melee"/"inbetween" attacks.

Good post.

I think part of what I find confusing about the situation is that to me, in an ARPG, clear speed and safety is generally the goal. I think this is true for a lot of people.

In PoE, increasing the amount of mobs you hit is a pretty obvious way to increase your clear time. So people just do this. It's natural.

Most of your 'in-between' skills I think most people would really try to juice the range out of as much as reasonable if they were trying to make a build out of that. Just because, why not?

PoE just throws so many monsters at you that the only discernible advantage having low range could be is if you could basically just 1-shot monsters. Then, once you can 1-shot one, why not try to 1-shot two at the same time?

A topic people aren't really touching on, which they should be, is movement and motion.

An original balance point was that different weapons offered different movement options. Whirling Blades is like the Lamborghini of movement. It doesn't do good in all terrain but it's fast as shit. I think this was meant to be paired with more melee oriented skills. Allowing people to use whirling blades with a skill that has really good range and radius (ST) seems extremely strong to me. This is coming from somebody who plays these builds.

Bow builds, have yet to be allowed to have a fast movement skill outside of MEH-lightning-warp. I can imagine it would be fairly broken, as when it comes right down to it, I could make a bow build that is even higher dps and kills packs faster than even a Ferarri ST build. But how would I ever keep up with Whirling Blades?

But seriously, as somebody who plays low-life ST right now, my build would not function without whirling blades. Nowhere near as well. Subtle things like this is more important than most people realize.