So Vaal orbs Unsocket and unlink a 6L..

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Veta321 wrote:

This appears intentional to me. In fact I was advocating for a T2 (as in not top tier) item sink for a while. The purpose being to desaturate the market of T2 items and to ameliorate the "bad loot syndrome" that so plagues leagues after a few months. That's what the Vaal Orb seems to do. Once the novelty wears off it'll be determined whether that's indeed what it does, or if they're just another mapping currency.

To put it succinctly, Vaal Orbs are not meant to be used on T1 items - but people will gamble and it'll only benefit everyone else when they lose.

Oh, I am very well aware it's intentional, Veta, and I'm sure it was also very intentional that this particular aspect of the orb was neither showcased or mentioned. I'll admit that might be a little tinfoil hat there, but it does make you wonder why when such an outcome could potentially happen that it should've at least gotten a mention...again...I believe that was definitely intentional as GGG wanted some of that gear to get wrecked and made useless. As far as your assessment with them being used on the lesser tier items and not the highest tier of stuff...I can see that happening and that's what GGG said as well. However, that was before it was known (to the playerbase) that Vaal Orbs carried such a potentially heavy, irreversible penalty to them that doesn't seem to have a low chance of happening.

But, we'll see if the assessment holds true...me personally, I don't think the orbs will even be used on lesser gear because, again, it's just another RNG layer on top of too much RNG and it won't do what the devs thought it will.

"

Veta321 wrote:

I'm not sure socialization and ARPGs are mutually exclusive. The most infamous was Diablo 2, which by all counts, was the most social game Blizzard had ever made up to that point, and is only second to WoW. Would it be fair to say this is your own personal preference, rather than a general heuristic of the ARPG genre?

Sure, why not, but I was referring to the intention behind development, we all know bliz had no big expectations from D2 multiplayer so they provided only basic features, while most other ARPGs out there often lack even those, as will, say, Grim Dawn once it comes out. On the other hand, MMOs are made with online play in mind and playing them offline would be an awfully lackluster experience, if it was even possible. It's also worth noting modern ARPGs which do have social elements and are skewed in that direction are more often criticized for it than praised.

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Veta321 wrote:

So the item sink inherent to Vaal Orbs is more of a soft sink. When it rerolls an item it essentially renders it worthless (barring amazing luck) and thus "sinks" it. So, when Vaal orbs are used on items with some trade value, in the aggregate their scarcity will be affected. That is good because more scarce items means less market saturation - which means more valuable and satisfying loot.

Again, it would probably be able to function like that if it left sockets alone, at the time mid-tier gear is a factor your gear isn't set in stone and you often need to shift a lot of stuff around, even successful vaal orb rolls rob you of that flexibility. So, like I said, sure, I'll use them, but only on jewelry and belts.

"

Tanakeah wrote:

I'll admit that might be a little tinfoil hat there, but it does make you wonder why when such an outcome could potentially happen that it should've at least gotten a mention...again...I believe that was definitely intentional as GGG wanted some of that gear to get wrecked and made useless.

Interesting notion, probably not true, but I seem to remember Chris saying in some interview vaal orbs will be unable to ruin your item. He probably clarified it at some later date but I personally never saw that info, so I could have easily ruined a valuable item due to lack of info.

so much QQ over Vaal orbs. So from what i've gathered the main argument about why they are bad for the game is that they are too random, with too many possible downsides. Greed is greed, no? You don't want to play the lottery you sell your tickets to your friends... no reason to be upset. I guess too many people had their hopes up that this would be an easy way to upgrade their already OP end-game gear. Sry, you twisted your nut-hairs up in a bunch thinking that vaal orb was GGG's special gift to you.

Just because an orb CAN be bad for you does not make it bad for the game. You want more consistency in your game play? Don't use the orb, or better yet go play a game that is not built around RNG.


Its freaking hilarious seeing people play a game who's primary appeal is RNG loot, and then see those same people get upset, when their bad(at least risky) choices(like using vaal on 6-link), cause the RNG to screw them over.

I'm one of those people who got screwed by vaal orb, but guess what? Im still having fun...

so your argument is "Vaal orbs are fine because they are optional"?

So is a bag of dog shit on your door step so long as you dont light it on fire.


Labeling something optional does not mean its a good mechanic .

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Veta321 wrote:

I'd go so far as to say it will ultimately have a negligible impact on the permanent leagues, because they're so inundated with items that Vaal orbs will never make a great enough dent in item saturation to alleviate the 'bad loot syndrome'.

I don't trade, I don't care if item is valuable or not, only if it is usable or not. Still, I feel like I'm dropping some crap constantly. What Vaal Orbs will help me and why I should give a shit if market is saturated or not? I paid 30 EUR for RoS only because Blizz was able to throw away trading. I could pay much more for PoE, if GGG would be able to throw away trading.

@Veta321 i am surprised you take GGG's side, especially when you have made this good thread:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434/page/1

What is good for the players is probably good for GGG if it's cleverly made.

Remember how D3 devs kept choosing what is fun for the players rather than listening to the feelings of their players?
Check this:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/542070/page/1


__

I just read something who made me laugh, ( on reddit):
The title was " Corrupted Taryn Shiver (They Forgot Links) "

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Inexium2 wrote:

@Veta321 i am surprised you take GGG's side, especially when you have made this good thread:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434/page/1

What is good for the players is probably good for GGG if it's cleverly made.

Remember how D3 devs kept choosing what is fun for the players rather than listening to the feelings of their players?
Check this:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/542070/page/1

I don't have an opinion one way or another on if Vaal Orbs should affect links. I imagine it probably doesn't matter, but I could be wrong. After all, what good are your links if they're on a worthless rare and colors are unchangeable? Maybe in the case of 6 links, but in that regard the risk vs reward should be greater, no? I do think Vaal Orbs, conceptually are brilliant and in practice deliver, if maybe have some kinks.

The first thread you linked dealt with encouraging currency use through out the game, rather than merely the end of the game - or when it was absolutely necessary to progress. I still believe that's integral to engaging players in the early stages of the game. If you are drawing attention to the fact that the Vaal Orb will not and cannot ever be a low level crafting orb, I would concede you are correct - barring something like Scrotie's dust suggestion or tiered orbs.

The second thread was a good one, IIRC the conclusion was that items need more variety (both explicitly and implicitly) in order to reap the benefits of rich, addicting itemization like Diablo 2. Simply turning up drop rates would decidedly fail in that regard and would instead hasten the 'bad loot syndrome' that so plagues these sorts of games. I believe an ancillary conclusion was that more varied item properties would make item valuation more difficult and therefore at least partially inhibit the effects of item saturation. All very good things with regards to the overall economy and gear progression.

To players who consider themselves 'solo' or 'non-trading', don't think these matters don't concern you. If GGG solves these fundamental issues, they will be free to turn up drop rates without worrying about significant repercussions for everyone else who does trade and group. That is how I see it at least, and I am a non-trader generally.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

so your argument is "Vaal orbs are fine because they are optional"?

So is a bag of dog shit on your door step so long as you dont light it on fire.


Labeling something optional does not mean its a good mechanic .

Tell me what exactly is offensive about a vaal orb that you could compare to a bag of(possibly flaming) dogshit? oh thats right, you cant, because vaal orbs are not innately offensive to the human physiology.

Stop with the stupid analogies please and make some real arguments about why vaal orbs are hurting your fun.

My argument is not vaal orbs are fine because they are optional, my argument is vaal orbs are fine because they make my gaming experience(and many others) more fun(try to quantify that!), and if you dont like it, well guess what, its optional! My other argument was that if you feel cheated because you lost all the links on your item... well maybe you should pay attention before you throw a random orb on a 6-link without even knowing what it could do to it. Especially if losing that item is going to make you rage quit.

tl;dr

I like vaal orbs, if you dont, stop acting like they are being shoved in your face. just sell them, or give them to friends. If you bricked your legacy item, tough luck. Its what you deserve for being totally careless with your item.

"

Veta321 wrote:

"

Inexium2 wrote:

@Veta321 i am surprised you take GGG's side, especially when you have made this good thread:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/805434/page/1

What is good for the players is probably good for GGG if it's cleverly made.

Remember how D3 devs kept choosing what is fun for the players rather than listening to the feelings of their players?
Check this:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/542070/page/1

I don't have an opinion one way or another on if Vaal Orbs should affect links. I imagine it probably doesn't matter, but I could be wrong. After all, what good are your links if they're on a worthless rare and colors are unchangeable? Maybe in the case of 6 links, but in that regard the risk vs reward should be greater, no? I do think Vaal Orbs, conceptually are brilliant and in practice deliver, if maybe have some kinks.

Well what about rares that are not worthless or the Tarysn shiver linker above your post?

"

Veta321 wrote:

The first thread you linked dealt with encouraging currency use through out the game, rather than merely the end of the game - or when it was absolutely necessary to progress. I still believe that's integral to engaging players in the early stages of the game. If you are drawing attention to the fact that the Vaal Orb will not and cannot ever be a low level crafting orb, I would concede you are correct - barring something like Scrotie's dust suggestion or tiered orbs.

I like that thread because many players have commented on it and expressed their frustration towards what Qarl think is a good thing => hoarding orbs to finally trade them for an item = good game design.
This is what i remmember reading on your topic:
1. Players who are using orbs, are very frustrated at the end because of no results(90% of the time) We are talking about Exalt/fus..
2. Others are not enjoying the : HOARD-DOn't craft => trade => Trade more => win the game.

I linked that thread to say that Dev are not seeing or do not want to see players feelings.(How many are leaving?)

"

Veta321 wrote:

.

The second thread was a good one, IIRC the conclusion was that items need more variety (both explicitly and implicitly) in order to reap the benefits of rich, addicting itemization like Diablo 2. Simply turning up drop rates would decidedly fail in that regard and would instead hasten the 'bad loot syndrome' that so plagues these sorts of games. I believe an ancillary conclusion was that more varied item properties would make item valuation more difficult and therefore at least partially inhibit the effects of item saturation. All very good things with regards to the overall economy and gear progression.

I linked that second thread primarily because of the 2 links you can find in it.
As i see it myself, D3 devs( and some of GGG and you) are using rational thinking to solve problems who need rational thinking and more than that : good premises.

Why exaclty do we need to have a sink thing system? WHy do you want to destroy 6Ls exactly? Go tell me. And as another player have said: we have the chaos recipe, let's just make another one.

D3 guys kept saying to the community we know what is fun and what is good.. until D3 became what it became.
What fun can a player have in seeing his 6L Taryn shiver turn into a same item with a different implicit mod and a wonderful 2links?




Edit: Interesting fact
A Vaal orbs can make 6Ls!
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/812199/page/39
Edit later: It's only good for legacy items and we do not care about them do we?
Also: Strongboxes seem to be very rewarding and making players very happy.

"

Why exaclty do we need to have a sink thing system? WHy do you want to destroy 6Ls exactly? Go tell me. And as another player have said: we have the chaos recipe, let's just make another one.

This is a good question. For the long answer (and potential solutions), read here. In short it is this: The game is most addicting (and pleasurable) when players are periodically (although not necessarily regularly) finding items of interest/value/use. I believe that's a conclusion from the 2nd link you posted. Read on for more elaboration.

Trade has an interesting effect on the above in that it increases the rate at which useful (read: for you or someone else) items are found. It essentially catalyzes this period and catapults everyone forward. This subject is discussed at length in the D3 Dev article you referenced. From an individual perspective trade imparts value onto otherwise useless or uninteresting items. It also serves as an alternative avenue for item acquisition and wealth creation. Following so far?


Unfortunately, trade is a double edged sword, and after the initial burst of item acquisition it leaves players with giant durations between finding useful items. This decidedly frustrates players. Contrary to what GGG says, drop rates are balanced with botting and trading in mind. As a result, even if you play solo self-found, you are affected by the realities of the trade economy. GGG can't improve solo drop rates without ruining the trade economy (well they could add SFL but for some reason they don't want to do that). Either way, even if they did add a SFL it would only compartmentalize the problem to individual players, who eventually would also meet the "bad loot syndrome."

What do you think happens when that duration between finding good items gets unbearably long? People get frustrated, not just people but entire leagues. They make threads titled "BAD LOOT WTF", "DIABLO 3 LOOT WTF," "QUITTING HERES Y." Are you still with me?

Ok. Obviously the quality of items dropping hasn't changed. It's not as if GGG disables good items after a few months in every league. So what has changed? The relative quality of the items everyone has collectively accumulated has changed. After a few months the collective return on farming or crafting is so [relatively] bad that players become frustrated, even with the low drop rates that are presumably meant to inhibit this accumulation. In reality these low drop rates make players feel forced to trade (which is partly true) and causes frustration itself.

So what is the real underlying problem? It's item accumulation. Nobody wants these items because they already have them, or they can't do anything with them (and the items they're using are already better). Queue Vaal Orb, enter stage right. The Vaal Orb counteracts this item accumulation by giving those items an additional value - the value of potentially beneficial corruption. At the same time, the Vaal Orb has a chance of rerolling the item, for all intents and purposes this mostly renders the item useless and can be thought of as item destruction. So the Vaal Orb imparts value on otherwise worthless items and consumes such items. I'm sure you've heard of supply and demand. Well, the demand of such items goes up while the supply goes down, meaning the value increases. That's good because it means players who find those items will feel like they found something of value (because they did).

Now we've (at least partially) addressed the root problem of item accumulation. But what does that even mean? It means the duration between players finding good (interesting/valuable/useful) items has diminished. It means less "WTF BAD LOOT" threads, because players are finding things of value (either to replace their gear or trade). And for solo self found players it means GGG can turn up drop rates because the trade economy won't spiral out of control, ruining the experience of everyone who does trade.

With a perfect item sink, the satisfaction chart would look consistent, like this:


Ok maybe that answer wasn't so short.

"

D3 guys kept saying to the community we know what is fun and what is good.. until D3 became what it became.

I'm not a game developer but I am a financial analyst and this is a financial problem. It appears to me they failed to consider as much and did not come to any remedial conclusion. By the looks of it GGG at least tried but even the Vaal Orb is not a perfect item sink. Eventually item accumulation will be too great and the "bad loot" will triumph. That's likely the case in the legacy leagues.