what is the point of filler mods.

"

Sinnesteuer wrote:

ITT - OP wants to have cake and eat it as well.

Not sure I follow. Are you advocating mods with no gameplay value?

If I'm reading the thread right, the problem with making all mods potentially useful throughout the game is that too much gear will become awesome. To solve that, it appears some propose filler mods to make good gear harder to get. (Evidently the RNG isn't enough.)

What I see missing from that argument is specialization. What if the pool of mods had many that were useful only for a specialized build, making them mutually exclusive if you got them on the same item?

That would do the same job as filler mods, but without the gameplay cost.

"

Sinnesteuer wrote:

"

tinko92 wrote:

The point is, there is a way to make absolutely all mods useful to someone.

Which is exactly the same as saying "Any item that drops should only have useful mods", which leads to EVERY SINGLE ITEM being "good" and nothing being "bad", and it still would not address the underlying issue that too many whiny children experience with RNG. Your confirmation bias alone will support the feeling that the only stuff that ever drops is good for something other than *your* build, simply because you aren't finding 100% optimal gear for YOU on every drop.

Basically, you are arguing to change the system so that you can experience the same net result, for no real reason other than to potentially be able to scale or min/max every single piece of character optimization beyond what is actually needed in order to play/progress/enjoy the game. Interestingly enough, that level of optimization already exists, it is just really difficult to obtain with the current mod pool and tier system (which I don't have a problem with, but we all know that).

We are going to have to agree to disagree here, as this is intractable between the two camps.

Because an item with +2 maximum ES and +4 strength is a good one.

NO IT DOES NOT LEAD TO EVERY SINGLE ITEM BEING GOOD, because even now the ES chests that are for mirroring are GARBAGE to me.
2 handed axes that are for mirroring are GARBAGE to me.

Just like buffed thorns will be a garbage to me...

Please, do I have to draw it for you?


That is right, it will not affect me, but it will affect some % of the people who would find these "new" mods usable.

Nope, not going further than this, it's pointless.

"

Peace_Frog wrote:

Except people leveling, or participating in race events, or low level PvPers. I feel like a broken record here. I keep saying it, and nobody listens; or worse, they tell me that nobody does these things. Just because you don't use these mods doesn't mean nobody else does. And please don't give me the "what end-game build would you use those for" argument, because I'm not talking about end-game.

I'm not disagreeing with the idea of increasing these to have higher values. But I believe that they exist as they are currently for a reason. Maybe stacking 2,000 life per second or 10k thorns damage per hit is just too strong, and they're working on a way to balance it in the future. I think the current stepping stones from "X Life Regen per second" to "X Life Gained on Hit" to "X% Physical Damage Leeched as Life" is working just fine. They shouldn't remove these low mods so all gear is good to somebody, because that's how RNG works. Most gear is garbage, and you have to know how to pick the good ones out from the rest.

(Also, the health regen and thorns damage values were examples, not the key point of my argument)

I do agree that 3.1 life regen is usable if stacked until ~20 level, just like 30% spell damage is good until some level, after that it starts to stink badly and needs a change, guess what? You can actually get a higher (noticeable) tier spell damage, can you get that with life regen? No.

Who uses life regen mod on a 30+ level, and wouldn't replace that with 25% resistance or 15 all attributes, etc... ?

THAT IS THE POINT OF ALL THIS.

Don't bring up your extreme examples, it's just pathetic.

They shouldn't just remove it to make crafting easier, NOBODY said that.


And about that amulet, I would like to see who would take a Coral Amulet as a base before ANY other amulet.

You are missing the point.

"

Roccandil wrote:

"

Sinnesteuer wrote:

ITT - OP wants to have cake and eat it as well.

Not sure I follow. Are you advocating mods with no gameplay value?

If I'm reading the thread right, the problem with making all mods potentially useful throughout the game is that too much gear will become awesome. To solve that, it appears some propose filler mods to make good gear harder to get. (Evidently the RNG isn't enough.)

What I see missing from that argument is specialization. What if the pool of mods had many that were useful only for a specialized build, making them mutually exclusive if you got them on the same item?

That would do the same job as filler mods, but without the gameplay cost.

Because under your proposal the issue of "I can't find anything 'good' for the toon I am currently playing" would still exist thanks to RNG, and the same group of folks clamoring for changes to the current mod pool would again be up in arms. It would still be just as difficult to find/craft/trade "optimal" gear for any particular build.

A more elegant solution for those that only want "useful" mods would be to dramatically reduce the mod pool to only those mods that are "useful" to all builds and/or equipment types, scale the mod tiers to roughly match ilvl on item roll, and subsequently reduce the maximum number of mods to fewer than six in order to balance the improved resulting items.

The game already provides you with a way to produce items that are "custom made" to optimize your build. You can, with enough time and orb investment, create a "perfect" rare. But that reality flies in the face of the "spoonfeed me ezmode" crowd that constitutes a decent percentage of gamers, so we get threads like this.

The reality is that such changes would effect the game on every level, requiring rebalance of the entire game, reworking of various mechanics, and changes to items already existing in the game.

And let's not kid ourselves, this argument is not about how "hard" it is to get "good" gear, it's about wanting greater/easier access to "optimal" gear. I get "good" gear all the time, I get "great" gear on occasion. When/if I get "optimal" gear then I will likely build a character around it.

So, yes, OP wants to have his cake (get only mods that are "useful" in the pool) and eat it too (have items that will be "optimal" in more situations).

"

Sinnesteuer wrote:

Because under your proposal the issue of "I can't find anything 'good' for the toon I am currently playing" would still exist thanks to RNG, and the same group of folks clamoring for changes to the current mod pool would again be up in arms. It would still be just as difficult to find/craft/trade "optimal" gear for any particular build.
.

so if nothing would change , then... what are you complaining about again? again you are contradicting your self.

you say here that it wont matter , but then there are previous posts where you act like these changes are the end of bloody days for item balance.

"

Saltychipmunk wrote:

"

Sinnesteuer wrote:

Because under your proposal the issue of "I can't find anything 'good' for the toon I am currently playing" would still exist thanks to RNG, and the same group of folks clamoring for changes to the current mod pool would again be up in arms. It would still be just as difficult to find/craft/trade "optimal" gear for any particular build.
.

so if nothing would change , then... what are you complaining about again? again you are contradicting your self.

you say here that it wont matter , but then there are previous posts where you act like these changes are the end of bloody days for item balance.

Does this same line of argumentation not apply to you?

Do you not understand that what you are asking for will not, in any way, solve your loot issues?

"Please GGG, sink an insane amount of development resource into revamping your mod pool and mod RNG so that I can experience the same net result of loot dissatisfaction."

That is what you are asking for, and I see no reason for it.

I argue against it strongly because it seems to be the only way to get narcissistic boneheads to understand how misguided certain ideas are when the bigger picture is taken into account.

"

Sinnesteuer wrote:

Because under your proposal the issue of "I can't find anything 'good' for the toon I am currently playing" would still exist thanks to RNG, and the same group of folks clamoring for changes to the current mod pool would again be up in arms. It would still be just as difficult to find/craft/trade "optimal" gear for any particular build.

Sounds good to me. :) It'd be no worse than it was, and having things like late-game Coral Amulets pop up as new gear choices would be more fun.

"

Roccandil wrote:

"

Sinnesteuer wrote:

Because under your proposal the issue of "I can't find anything 'good' for the toon I am currently playing" would still exist thanks to RNG, and the same group of folks clamoring for changes to the current mod pool would again be up in arms. It would still be just as difficult to find/craft/trade "optimal" gear for any particular build.

Sounds good to me. :) It'd be no worse than it was, and having things like late-game Coral Amulets pop up as new gear choices would be more fun.

While having a .2% life regen mod on a piece of gear will never be optimal for most builds, it would provide a noticeable benefit for anyone who is not CI or Vaal Pact.

The same cannot be said for a +2 hp/sec mod.

I agree with the OP. Life regen was great when my toon was low level and had none. It's also great for races. That should stay. However, according to the wiki, the maximum value for life regen is 7 hp/sec, and this only appears on item level 78+. I don't believe every mod has to be equally useful, but for a max roll mod on an end game item, that's just insulting. Would it really destroy the game to allow the max roll to be higher? If you're worried about it being too easy to make powerful items, just make the RNG less likely to get a max roll on certain mods, or add diminishing returns to stacking those mods.

Also:

"

SVD wrote:

a claw with:

100% increased physical damage
+1 to melee skills
Life leech applies to Elemental Damage instead of physical damage
35% Increased critical strike chance
Weapon can't crit - Life leech with this weapon is instant

is pretty bad. still all affixes are good and useful under certain circumstances

This is a great example of an interesting affix system.

because diablo 2 had it.

Notice when GGG makes up their own stats that were never in d2 (energy shield for instance) its actually something good.

Lots of the bad stats are bad because they have no synergy. Theres no way to scale flat life regen or thorn damage. Theres no way to scale life gain on kill. Life gain on hit scales with attack speed so for some very fast builds the mod might actually be usful.

Faster hit recover is made absolute by armor because the equation for hit recovery already makes it shorter if you take less damage. 'reduced chance to be ignited' sucks because the equation that checks to see if you get ignited already gives you bonus based on your max health, if you dont want to be ignited just get more health and fire resist.

GGG just have nostalga for d2 and probably has some stupid excuse for keeping around the relics of the past.

The idea of 'you have to have bad stats to make the other stas look good' is an idiot statment. Suppose we have a first person shooter with 3 weapons. A chainsaw, a grenade launcher, and a slingshot.

The grenade launcher has 100 dps, big aoe but friendly fire at close range
The chainsaw has 110 dps and doesnt hurt you upclose
the slingshot has 1 dps but the best range.

The slingshot sucks.
In the current state you only use the chainsaw and the grenade launcher, 90% of the time
the grenade launcher because its the best overall.

If we remove the grenade launcher the slingshot still sucks and you only use the chainsaw
if we remove the genade launcher and the chainsaw the slingshot still sucks and you uninstall the game because it takes forever to kill stuff and its not fun.

Having the slingshot to 'make the other weapons feel strong' isn't a good idea. It would be better to buff the slingshots dps so we actually use it

"

Shagsbeard wrote:

In order to define "good", you have to have examples of "not good"... otherwise everything becomes "the same".

But the only thing ever really considered good is high life and res.

Examples of "not good" are just trash, and examples of "good" are all that are ever used

That makes everything the same.

I also hate when people say that about skills, it's an illogical argument.

These mods should be buffed, but unless the 'difficulty' is toned down they'll still be considered trash because life and res are requirements on all gear.