Thoughts on new CI

"

Porkeh wrote:

"

jonts26 wrote:

"

Porkeh wrote:

Taking out the ES is one thing, but by adding alternative ways to get Chaos Resistance, I feel it just makes it more a niche build if you feel like using Blood Rage and don't want to worry about the degen.

Aren't all of the Keystones for 'niche builds'? I mean, sure, some are better more often, but come on. Why should CI be different?

1. The downside to CI now is much larger than most other Keystones. Resolute Technique's downside is that you can't crit with the very little crit that you can get from passives. Iron Reflexes makes it so you can't dodge, but you get physical reduction to make up for it.

With CI, you lose all but 1 of your life, to gain immunity to Chaos. If this was the only way to reduce Chaos damage, it may not be that big of a deal. But because you can get Chaos Resist eslewhere, it seems like a high price to be paid.

2. The past expectations of the keystone. CI used to be a way to change how you would build your character, and play the game. Now, it's just 25% Max resistance vs Chaos damage.

You use the two examples of keystones which chris implied need to be tweaked anyway. Look at elemental equilibrium. It's basically -25% damage for a lot of builds. Or acrobatics removing all ES or blood magic removing all mana? Those are potentially big downsides too. I'm not saying it's as big, but if you never invest in str or life passives, you don't have that much life anyway.

And about the chaos resistance now being available, well, I haven't played the new system yet, but it seems to me that chaos is likely to hurt even more because the -60% penalty. Sure you can get resistance from some passives and gear, but its supposedly a lot harder to do than the other damage types. So in order to not take 60% more damage from chaos, a non-CI character has to give up potentially a lot of skill points and gear mods, and that's probably just to get back to 0%.

As a CI player, you are free to spend those points and mods on DPS or other survivability, which could, with the right build, make up for the lack of your smallish life pool. Plus you still get blood rage for free. Which is very nice.

"

Xikorut wrote:

What game are you playing? I've never even heard of 18k ES since CI got lowered to 50%. Slurms had basically the best ES gear anyone could have found last league and he would have had less than 18k with a buttload of ES nodes (all of them).

Oh, and 12k life? I saw a dude with 7k life and 700 life regen in a pvp match. I couldn't hurt him with a high level penetration gem. He didn't have Kaom's and he apparently had plenty more viable life to gain. 12k life? I think you can reach 14k actually. It would just be boring as hell.

lol.

Dude I can make a 20k ES build right now using crappy gear and you totally wrong about Life hp. 7k? then he only got life nodes.

I dont even know why I argue with people who got no idea about the game. CI got fixed and if it was upto me ES should get nerfed even more and yes im a CI user and ill be a CI user in open beta

just so you guys know. the alpha version of CI actually has some nodes after CI similar to acrobatics nodes that give you big ES bonus. CI is not changed as much as you think but the lower es on gear is worse.

if they balanced it correctly i think you will find the es on gear is similar to how it is now but less on very good gear at very high levels. the way it is now seems like it is okay but ppl with GG gear were getting like immortal amounts on es like we are talking like 11k es.

they needed to nerf this i think you will find es is reduced in the high extreme but not reduced as far as white gear or like "okay" gear.

i feel like you will be able to use ci very close to before but its no longer an end game must for all the theorycrafters.

they did seem to nerf hp/es though but as for dicipline's nerf they nerfed ALL auras not just dicipline. i think they felt it was too strong to get blood magic and spend like 50 life to get like 200 es.

also i want to remind you that blood rage still works with ci but also melee dmg on full life.
which is HUGE.

they were going to make these skills not work with ci and then they put it back in. ci is very lucky

Whoa, Nelly. BM has a downside of lacking mana? It's downside is that % auras aren't worthwhile. I've never seen anyone consider BM to be lacking in any manner. And saying "for most builds" doesn't make EE have a real downside, it just makes you adhere to a playstyle. I could argue that for most builds, CI would be a thousand times worse than EE :P And since characters like Marauders get nice 15% all res nodes, I think they could sacrifice a few mods for chaos resists. I've NEVER had max resists as a witch. Ever. Not even with godlike gear in two leagues.

"

Xikorut wrote:

Whoa, Nelly. BM has a downside of lacking mana? It's downside is that % auras aren't worthwhile. I've never seen anyone consider BM to be lacking in any manner. And saying "for most builds" doesn't make EE have a real downside, it just makes you adhere to a playstyle. I could argue that for most builds, CI would be a thousand times worse than EE :P And since characters like Marauders get nice 15% all res nodes, I think they could sacrifice a few mods for chaos resists. I've NEVER had max resists as a witch. Ever. Not even with godlike gear in two leagues.

This reply in no way addresses any of the points I made. The examples I gave were to illustrate that most of the keystones are great if you build around them and bad if you don't. But that's the point. They required a choice. CI had no choice beyond deciding to use ES. I'm sorry CI is no longer an auto-pick up for free defense for half of the builds in the game. But it seems that was against the general design philosophy of the devs.

Look, I haven't played the alpha. Maybe CI is terrible and never worth it. Maybe ES is now utter crap.

But given the track record of GGG, and the time all of the alpha testers put in, testers who are intensely devoted to ensuring the best possible PoE experience, maybe, just maybe, we should give these changes the benefit of the doubt.

How many of those testers were people who built CI characters though?

More on the original topic, CI was a playstyle. If you got hurt, you had to run. Fast. CI is the node that makes a pure ES build viable and turns a character into a hit and run machine rather than one who stands and fights with leech or regeneration. These new nodes, Zealot's Oath and Ghost Reaver? All they do is change that playstyle and shift it to be the same as LIFE. (I honestly expect nothing of Zealot's Oath for any build that plans to use CI though.)

Any idiot can make a 25k ES build right now. Look for max +ES gear. The problem with that is you will have junk stats. With *usable* high ES gear you are more likely to hit 10-15k ES while doing insane damage. Either way that was with no serious point spending in +ES nodes too. If you go a life regen + BM build you need to pick a LOT of +life nodes.

With the impending change to CI it is likely to require actual effort to make work. I mean you will have to spend points in the tree on +ES nodes, just like any life build will need to spend points on +life nodes. Of course the only people that are crying are those that just want the "most OP build with big pew pew numbers for no effort". I don't think this is that sort of game. Here you have to work and put effort into making an awesome character.

"

Xikorut wrote:

How many of those testers were people who built CI characters though?

Ummm...probably a lot. There goal is to test builds. Why wouldn't they test CI builds? Especially given the immense change it underwent. But if you have any evidence to show that alpha testers don't play CI, please share.

"

Xikorut wrote:

How many of those testers were people who built CI characters though?

More on the original topic, CI was a playstyle. If you got hurt, you had to run. Fast. CI is the node that makes a pure ES build viable and turns a character into a hit and run machine rather than one who stands and fights with leech or regeneration. These new nodes, Zealot's Oath and Ghost Reaver? All they do is change that playstyle and shift it to be the same as LIFE. (I honestly expect nothing of Zealot's Oath for any build that plans to use CI though.)[/quote]

So this isn't actually on the main topic. This is a problem with other nodes, not CI. And I guess these criticisms are valid, but they have nothing to do with CI, but the current treatment of ES and those other two keystones.

So yeah, CI playstyle has changed, which you can dislike, but it's not CI's fault. It's GR's. I would actually say the new changes make CI a bit more unique again, though not its original form, just because it is no longer a must have.

"

Sir_LogiC wrote:

Any idiot can make a 25k ES build right now. Look for max +ES gear. The problem with that is you will have junk stats. With *usable* high ES gear you are more likely to hit 10-15k ES while doing insane damage. Either way that was with no serious point spending in +ES nodes too. If you go a life regen + BM build you need to pick a LOT of +life nodes.

With the impending change to CI it is likely to require actual effort to make work. I mean you will have to spend points in the tree on +ES nodes, just like any life build will need to spend points on +life nodes. Of course the only people that are crying are those that just want the "most OP build with big pew pew numbers for no effort". I don't think this is that sort of game. Here you have to work and put effort into making an awesome character.

Get your logic out of here, sir_logic.

20k ES with crappy gear? I want what he's smoking.

As a 10k+ ES user (12k subbing out my Maligaro's Virtuosity) I can tell you that anyone complaining about ES+CI being OP is stupid. 4k life is easily better than 12k ES. Easily.

I've said it a thousand times, there are serious disadvantages to taking CI. You get stunned a ton, you get chilled forever. You get frozen forever. You get shock-stacked easily, and they last forever. Your ES drains way faster than life due to committing to ES gear instead of armor/evasion gear. Etc., Etc., Etc.

I already planned a life build in Open Beta long before any plans to nerf ES/CI were in place. Life simply is better. Even moderate life builds.