General Discussion - Desync and why it's fixable - Forum

Spoiler " ScrotieMcB wrote: " Prostasisx wrote: Spoiler I'm not sure this will get heard... but the one major thing that most of you are forgetting about (but some of you have touched on) is actually, yes, the hacking. Ready for a prime example??? Diablo 3 PC version, is much like PoEs server/client relationship (most of the calculations are done on the server side, and then sent to client, etc etc) - not as many hacks (outside of maphacks/botting)... VERSUS Diablo 3 CONSOLE Version - where ALL of the work is done client side (in fact, they're not even connected to a server, they have offline mode) - and what happened in the first day of release?? Yes hacked items galore, everyone gets a hacked item - you get 4 socket weapon, and you get 4 socket weapon, and YOU get one too... Look folks - when it comes to the PC, ANYTHING touched on the client side CAN and WILL be manipulated in order to gain a substantial advantage- why??? Because there's MONEY in it... and you know what I"m talking about... This is why things like WarZ had such HUGE problems with hackers (DayZ too to some extent) - the WarZ calculations for bullet travel and damage were all done on the CLIENT side... why??? So that there was LESS LAG!! The company wasn't big enough to house a gigantic server infrastructure like, say, Blizzard - so they had the clients handle all of the work... and now, you get some hackers/scripters to code up some Injections, and wamo bamo, you have no travel time bullets, esp, super fast run, yadda yadda... So do you want to have a bit of desync that you have to learn to deal with (and there are ways to LESSEN the amount of desync - say like - stop whirling blading into 30 mobs and always expecting to make it out safe and sound) or do you want a game completely ruined and unplayable because everyone has the best items on the server - everyone has 10 mirrors in their inventory, and the best gear in the game... Pick your poison... I totally agree that anything client-side will be hacked eventually; if you're lucky, maybe not right away, if you're unlucky it'll be exploited Day 1, but inevitably it will happen. However, what I'm talking about putting client-side is just monster AI, the decisions regarding movement and skill use... and with the exceptions of positioning and animation, all results of those skills — hit chance, crit chance, damage — would still be done server-side. That, and the server is doing the same calculations server-side, and trust those results. So which hacks are really possible here? You could make monsters appear further away, or appear not to attack... but they'd still be moving and attacking and damaging normally on the server, so that wouldn't get the hacker anywhere. You could predict monster actions a moderate degree of time into the future, which I guess is at least somewhat relevant... but is preventing that really a fair trade, something we're willing to sit through all that desync in order to prevent? I just don't see any serious security risk here. Yeah - but anytime you have something done on the client side, where you can inject anything into it, you're going to be able to gain an advantage... And by having the enemies AI on the client side - would be even worse, now you're asking for ANOTHER transmission of data in the stream... User > Client > Server - and AI > Server - Server > AI - AI back to Server - Server back to AI - AI to Client - Client to User - User to Client...... see where this is going??? You're talking about perceivable instantaneous interaction with a video game - even adding the TINIEST of information transfer, can create a gigantic ripple - nothing is getting fixed, it's just that the bucks getting passed along - you'll still have the Desync.... The Desync occurs between the Client and the Server not matching up - this will always and forever happen unless the information that leads to this, is processed ON the client side - there is absolutely NO way around this - it's the transmission of information... As PoE gets bigger, and GGG has more money, they'll be able to improve their infrastructure to provide faster and more constant synchronization. In the mean time... don't leap slam around the dungeons expecting to always be where you think you are, be aware of this, and conscious of your movements. And know that Brutus is just nasty buggy, period, lol :D And in the back of all of our minds - remember how much we pay every month to play this wonderful game... that's sort of what it comes down to...	Posted by Prostasisx on Dec 1, 2013, 9:48:46 PM Quote this Post
" Prostasisx wrote: As PoE gets bigger, and GGG has more money, they'll be able to improve their infrastructure to provide faster and more constant synchronization. I'm very cynical, but this isn't really a given, is it? I mean, increased popularity dictates that they have increased hosting costs, that's all I really know. I'm obviously only speaking from personal experience here, but in my 18 or so months with the game it has certainly gotten more popular but I do have trouble noticing improved synching (though there could be and probably at least partially are other reasons for this).	Posted by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013, 9:53:50 PM
Having played this game since closed beta - I've noticed a tremendous improvement in desync (yes it's still there, yes I truly believe MUCH of it is avoidable, and comes from careless movements) Yes it was bad when they released, as their servers were trying to handle a huge influx of people... The bigger problem I've been facing has been the client crashing - I have the client crash on me in maps about.. 3 times a day, but desync?? I honestly hardly ever ever desync - and I don't put myself into situations (or try not to) that would kill me. And yes, I have lost a character to desync recently (lvl 33 discharger with a searing touch) - but after it happened, I KNEW it was my own damn fault - I tried to run into the middle of 20 mobs, and tried to run out again... I was mad, sure, but it was avoidable... I knew better lol - you can't run around like this is a console game, it's not, it has it's little fidgets and twerks, and gidgets to it - but it's FREEEEE.... and DAMN is it ever good- My Dollar per Hour on this game (hell even including my silver supporter back I bought in CB) has been AMAZING. Do I wish it was better... sure... but at what cost??? it is what it is, and it's FREEEEEE - can't beat that, sorry, not on any day of the week...	Posted by Prostasisx on Dec 1, 2013, 9:58:30 PM Quote this Post
" Prostasisx wrote: And by having the enemies AI on the client side - would be even worse, now you're asking for ANOTHER transmission of data in the stream... User > Client > Server - and AI > Server - Server > AI - AI back to Server - Server back to AI - AI to Client - Client to User - User to Client...... see where this is going??? You're talking about perceivable instantaneous interaction with a video game - even adding the TINIEST of information transfer, can create a gigantic ripple - nothing is getting fixed, it's just that the bucks getting passed along - you'll still have the Desync.... Wrong. Hard to be wronger, actually.* What I'm talking about is putting the same deterministic AI process on both the client and server sides so that communication regarding monster movement/AI is not required for normal operation (although it may still be used to resynchronize if things go wrong). Monster AI is something which doesn't need to be random, and any randomness in the process can be controlled through random seeds both the server and the client share. *Yes, I know wronger isn't a real word. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.	Posted by ScrotieMcB on Dec 1, 2013, 9:58:32 PM Quote this Post
" Prostasisx wrote: And yes, I have lost a character to desync recently (lvl 33 discharger with a searing touch) - but after it happened, I KNEW it was my own damn fault - I tried to run into the middle of 20 mobs, and tried to run out again... I was mad, sure, but it was avoidable... I knew better lol - you can't run around like this is a console game, it's not, it has it's little fidgets and twerks, and gidgets to it - but it's FREEEEE.... and DAMN is it ever good- My Dollar per Hour on this game (hell even including my silver supporter back I bought in CB) has been AMAZING. Although your personal accountability is admirable in a way, it's a mistake to accept desync as a feature rather than as a bug. If you were stun-locked and died, then that would be your fault and things would be fine; but if you died to desync and not the real mechanics of the game, then that's not a responsibility you should bear on your own shoulders. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.	Posted by ScrotieMcB on Dec 1, 2013, 10:00:59 PM Quote this Post
" Prostasisx wrote: Having played this game since closed beta - I've noticed a tremendous improvement in desync (yes it's still there, yes I truly believe MUCH of it is avoidable, and comes from careless movements) Yes it was bad when they released, as their servers were trying to handle a huge influx of people... The bigger problem I've been facing has been the client crashing - I have the client crash on me in maps about.. 3 times a day, but desync?? I honestly hardly ever ever desync - and I don't put myself into situations (or try not to) that would kill me. And yes, I have lost a character to desync recently (lvl 33 discharger with a searing touch) - but after it happened, I KNEW it was my own damn fault - I tried to run into the middle of 20 mobs, and tried to run out again... I was mad, sure, but it was avoidable... I knew better lol - you can't run around like this is a console game, it's not, it has it's little fidgets and twerks, and gidgets to it - but it's FREEEEE.... and DAMN is it ever good- My Dollar per Hour on this game (hell even including my silver supporter back I bought in CB) has been AMAZING. Do I wish it was better... sure... but at what cost??? it is what it is, and it's FREEEEEE - can't beat that, sorry, not on any day of the week... Well I tend to play more efficiently and less safe than I used to. I desync a lot though, seriously stupid amounts. I don't often die to desync (I think I've died because of it about twice from maybe a dozen or so deaths, with the vast majority of "BS" deaths coming from disconnects) but there are many situations where I could easily die because of desync if I get unlucky. I don't agree with any sort of desync defense though, particularly ones that compromise playing style, build setups and so on. You'll have to excuse me for that.	Posted by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013, 10:05:47 PM
" Prostasisx wrote: Having played this game since closed beta - I've noticed a tremendous improvement in desync (yes it's still there, yes I truly believe MUCH of it is avoidable, and comes from careless movements) Yes it was bad when they released, as their servers were trying to handle a huge influx of people... The bigger problem I've been facing has been the client crashing - I have the client crash on me in maps about.. 3 times a day, but desync?? I honestly hardly ever ever desync - and I don't put myself into situations (or try not to) that would kill me. And yes, I have lost a character to desync recently (lvl 33 discharger with a searing touch) - but after it happened, I KNEW it was my own damn fault - I tried to run into the middle of 20 mobs, and tried to run out again... I was mad, sure, but it was avoidable... I knew better lol - you can't run around like this is a console game, it's not, it has it's little fidgets and twerks, and gidgets to it - but it's FREEEEE.... and DAMN is it ever good- My Dollar per Hour on this game (hell even including my silver supporter back I bought in CB) has been AMAZING. Do I wish it was better... sure... but at what cost??? it is what it is, and it's FREEEEEE - can't beat that, sorry, not on any day of the week... this is weird..I am playing since ..yea..closed beta back in 2011 .. and while PoE had many glaring issues these days..it really seems they are just shifting from one problem to another..I don't feel it improved..like..at all..games behave differently compared to it 2-3 years ago..but there is no way we can talk about some real improvements.. Honestly..today(well, yesterday) I had probably one of the worst desync issues..okey..maybe not desync ..I am desyncing constantly as always ..however game also felt sooo delayed. However..since I am playing..and its few years already..I had crash..once..or twice..so for me game is really stable..which is good of course..but I see there are some people having problem with stability? weird..but okey.. Anyway, excusing desync with Free2play model..it's funny.. keep in mind Free2play it's not charity .. actually it's one of the most successful "pay" model on market right now..don't lent word free to confuse you... and they really should have enough resources to somehow improve desync issues ..what they are waiting for? Are really game mechanics main problem? There are many free to play games..and yet..these can handle server-client synchronization just fine..we all should less talk about how it is NOT problem and everything is fine..it's simple, spam oos, don't use half of the skills, avoid certain monsters and areas, watch your steps, always check desync when entering doors etc.. right? Hell no..	Posted by ManiaCCC on Dec 1, 2013, 10:12:38 PM Quote this Post
[Removed by Admin] Make Spectral Throw great again Last edited by Henry_GGG on Dec 1, 2013, 10:23:58 PM	Posted by CommodoX on Dec 1, 2013, 10:14:10 PM Quote this Post
[Removed by Admin] Make Spectral Throw great again Last edited by Henry_GGG on Dec 1, 2013, 10:24:06 PM	Posted by CommodoX on Dec 1, 2013, 10:16:50 PM Quote this Post
" CommodoX wrote: " Prostasisx wrote: it's FREEEEEE - can't beat that, sorry [Removed by Admin] If you feel like you're being pissed on, why are you here? [Removed by Admin] When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by Henry_GGG on Dec 1, 2013, 10:29:54 PM	Posted by ScrotieMcB on Dec 1, 2013, 10:21:51 PM Quote this Post