[1.0.2] Tri Element Trapper

With the changes to burning damage in this new patch, I wonder if taking master sapper would give more of a benefit than High Explosives. 21% more trap damage and -10% resistances vs 40-43% more trap damage.

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Shoraki wrote:

With the changes to burning damage in this new patch, I wonder if taking master sapper would give more of a benefit than High Explosives. 21% more trap damage and -10% resistances vs 40-43% more trap damage.

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"Generic modifiers to damage dealt will now apply to damage over time that your character causes. Damage over time is not spell damage, nor attack damage, so modifiers specific to those types will not apply. Non-specific "increased damage" modifiers will apply to damage over time. Type-specific modifiers will apply as well. For example, "increased fire damage" modifiers will apply to fire damage over time.

Modifiers based on how the damage is dealt will apply as appropriate - for example, increased area damage and increased projectile damage will both apply to the poison clouds from Poison Arrow, as it fills an area and is an effect of a projectile.

The Ignite status ailment now deals only 20% of the original hit per second for 4 seconds. This has been reduced as it can be increased in more ways with the damage over time changes."

Those three paragraphs of the patch notes directly relate to what you're saying. I just woke up, and am now doing the math on it all, I figured to do it here in this post so everyone can see as I figure it out myself.

If my understanding is correct, here are the things in our build/gear that would affect Ignite. Trap Damage, Elemental Damage, Burning Damage, and if you have Carcass Jack, the +Area Damage. Also, the LESS/MORE of Multi Trap and Conc Effect will change it as well.

Since damage in linear, let's assume to make the math easy that our Fire Trap does 100 damage.

In the "old way", that means our Ignites were 33 dmg/sec and the only thing that changed this number is the +59% of the Increased Burning Damage Gem, bringing the total to 52 dmg/sec.

Now fuck me, the math is gonna be a little bit more complicated on figuring out the new way, but I'll try to muscle through it. If you see an error in my thinking, please point it out because I could be wrong. Here's a list of the modifiers we have, and what they would do to the "100 damage" Fire Trap.

Trap Damage - +77%
Elemental Damage - +15%
Burning Damage - +59%
Carcass Jack - +12%
LESS/MORE Support Gems - total of +29% MORE

The first 4 modifiers are addative, giving us a total of +163%. This means that the "new" 20% damage of ignite becomes oddly enough the same 52 dmg/sec as above, however this is without Multi Trap and Conc Effect. They are additive with each other, then multiplicitive with the base, bringing our 52 dmg/sec to about 68 dmg/sec. So the patch actually made our ignites naturally stronger.

Now, using the total from above of 68 dmg/sec, here is the damage done at certain resists to simulate what the 10% penetration would do if we went with High Explosives.

75% becomes 65% = 24 sec
25% becomes 15% = 57 sec
0% becomes -10% = 75 sec
-25% becomes -35% = 92 sec
-75% becomes -85% = 126 sec

Okay, so going back to the addative math, ditching High Explosives for Master Sapper would give us a total of +22% Trap Damage, bringing our additive total to 185% (Assuming you go down the left side because the extra trap nodes from the right side are not needed). When we assumed that our Fire Trap damage was 100, that was also including the modifiers from above (Minus Increased Burning Damage), and the +spell damage of your dagger and the beginning of the Shadow Tree. I'm not going to post the entire chain of math to how I figured this out, but in the end, the extra 22% Trap Damage would make the base 100 damage into roughly 102 damage.

Now, taking the base of 102 damage, and using the above modifiers, plus the extra 22% brings our ignite ticks to 58 dmg/sec. Roughly 6 dmg/sec higher than before. Now, factoring in the LESS/MORE portion, it brings that total to 75 dmg/sec...about 7 dmg/sec higher.

Now, as above, here is what the 75dmg/sec would look at the "non 10% penetration" resist points from above.

75% = 18 sec
25% = 56 sec
0% = 75 sec
-25% = 94 sec
-75% = 131 sec

Wow, now that I've done the math, I'm actually amazed by it. When I first saw the patch notes, I immediately thought the same thing as you, that changing those 2 clusters would be a big benefit, but they're nearly identical. Because of Elemental Equilibrium, and Fire Pen Gem linked, you have to assume for the most part we're going to be hitting monsters somewhere between the -25% and +25% resist points. Granted some more, some less, but the bulk will be between those 2 points.

At 0% both passive trails do exactly the same damage, with lower resists favoring Sapper, higher resists favoring High Explosives. However, as the math above shows, High Explosives is more effective at higher resists than the raw damage. What this means is that because Ice Nova and Shock Nova are NOT linked with a penetration gem, and only gain the benefit of Elemental Equilibrium, they're going to be hitting more frequently above the 0% mark, meaning they gain a bigger benefit from High Explosives than Master Sapper.

Overall it's pretty damn close, but I think by a "nose", High Explosives barely wins out because of the bigger benefit to our other traps...including the Added Fire Gem of Bear Traps. Also, I know this is pretty slim, but the 3 points leading to high explosives give 15% crit and 20 intel, which we benefit from. The 3 points leading to Master Sapper is 30 dex, which we gain NOTHING from because it's accuracy and +evasion, but Iron Reflexes cancels the +evasion.

I'm not about to do a whole new set of math, because this early in the morning my mind is already bleh from doing all this, but I think the new patch might have made using a Searing Touch a lot more deadly than it was previously. Losing the crit from a dagger might now be outweighed by the burning damage, and +Fire Levels of a Searing Touch. But I'll let someone else figure that out because I have no intention of going that way because I like being a bit more defensive while using a shield.

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Some skills now display average damage per skill use instead of DPS, as DPS would not make sense for them.

Huzzah, from the patch notes. Now I can stop being whispered about my "DPS" of my traps, and can avoid having to explain how DPS meant nothing on traps...rofl.

Now before someone asks...

Fire Trap (Level 19) - 2215 avg dmg
Shock Nova (Level 16) - 875
Ice Nova (Level 17) - 942
Bear Trap (Level 19) - 5684

On a side note, I already tried it because it was such a stupid thing when traps showed DPS, but faster casting no longer changes these numbers, such a welcome change.

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arkon9944 wrote:

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a1610 wrote:

very nice build!
i want see your gear :P

thanks reply!

Hey! First of all thanks for the awesome guide!

Is there anyway we could modify it into a Templar??

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D2HoliC wrote:

Hey! First of all thanks for the awesome guide!

Is there anyway we could modify it into a Templar??

Yeah, you could. I think it would be less effective than a Shadow, but probably doable. I would do a passive tree something like this as a Templar:



You would lose Mind Over Matter and Iron Reflexes, meaning you would have to use Armor/ES type of pieces instead of EV/ES, plus Determination instead of Grace.

You would, however, gain both the AoE big passives and more Elemental Damage nodes, plus the increased burning damage of the Holy Fire cluster. You would also have some extra crit chance/multiplier.

Overall you would be gaining offense for defense basically. A Templar would do quite a bit more damage, while my Shadow build would have a lot more survivability. If you watched my attatched video, you would see doing more damage isn't a problem. So me personally, I'd pick survivability.

The +evasion nodes near scion is a lot of damage mitigation, and grace > determination. Plus you would be eliminating the use of Carcass Jack, which takes away one of those AoE passives you spec into as a templar.

okay thanks for the detailed answer!

I think im rolling a shadow then, cause i wanna try it in Nemesis league :P

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arkon9944 wrote:

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgUBBVuLjOFz7SBG15_fPAXvfIM4FE2iAASzAnHwH4FvnjxN2Ix2OtjsOBo4p4SQVSlPgpvkIo5k96a2-hpsGYUkqjbp42qdrhJpFxxxeacIj0aBSbI4Zk_Q0M9lVcaboWe97m_YJDbFHwIEB0yzl5VSUz1fLR9tGcHzgh7bC4hC8h3BxewYp1xJUY_6_KudoxGWcLvZEy9vDkjjhO4Vt3WiLlBCjDZVSyaVXfJw1XBS2-cyGKbnBndTMV76uJPr7ij6mK16qprgRZ0kPFptJ6k=

Would not work, you only have 14 dexterity from passives, you need at least 200 as well over half of the gems we use are green. Even the gear we wear requires a hefty amount of dex, would be able to pick up 80 dex easily from nearby passives, but that would be a fairly large waste of points and it would be a serious pain to level up. So unless you have a free respec on a high level templar, its pretty much out of the question.

Edit: Honestly drop the fire node, the 2 trap nodes, and the one aoe node, and what you have there is a freezing pulse build hahah.

Currently running a 5l carcass jack. what would be the ideal gem setup for this? Right now i have fire trap, fire pen, increased burning dmg, multi trap, and ele prolif

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Randy62 wrote:

Currently running a 5l carcass jack. what would be the ideal gem setup for this? Right now i have fire trap, fire pen, increased burning dmg, multi trap, and ele prolif

Mine is 5L as well now...I use Fire Trap - Fire Pen - Multi Trap - Ele Prolif - Conc Effect. Gonna add Inc Burning as #6.