The case for FFA Loot

I now understand that I have never heard a responsible and logical case for FFA loot. Not a single one. I've been in the beta for maybe 2 months. Love the game. So I would like to understand it. It's not going anywhere after all.

Just people saying ''noob'' ''yeah, you're just bad'' and even '' Well this is not D3 you faggot! '' when it's even talked about it just doesn't do it for me. It's just really disappointing to even have the right to discuss it... or even understand it like I said before.

Has there ever been a civilized (and calm at least) explanation for why there is FFA loot? I'm completely open to the idea if someone can talk about it like an adult. It's almost like mentioning it is... well I don't know lol


I'd rather a dev respond if they could. But anyone with case for it being in such a good upcoming game, I'm all for what you need to say.

And yes! Log in in comment please (if you are not already)

Good luck getting a dev response on this. All they have said since I have been playing is "We are listening but don't have time to work on that at this point in development"

I do not support FFA but I can however give you their best argument for why no other looting options should be in the game.

"If there were more looting options in the game then no one would play FFA anymore because everyone wants to get loot easier and without any kind of difficulty. People would just take the path of least resistance and thus there would be no more of the FFA that I love in the game".

This is the only argument that leaves me completely speechless.

That argument doesnt make any sense, because there are obviously plenty of people out there that still want to play with FFA loot.

What the devs have said on the matter is that they want the loot to be competitive and "cut-throat" just like other aspects of the game. They find it to be appropriate, given the game's competitive nature, for players to miss out on loot if they are not paying attention. I think that they approve of the "rush" that a player gets when going for loot that someone else might get to first.



The thing is that there is an inherent imbalance with FFA loot, and that is that ranged classes are at a disadvantage, so GGG introduced the loot timer, where (non-white) drops are assigned to a random player in the vicinity, and based on how far away they are, they have a short amount of time to grab it before it is open to everyone.

Here's my gripe with the issue: That's not FFA. It's a band-aid over the imbalance within FFA loot, without that actual benefit of the loot being genuinely FFA.



Between pure FFA and the current timed system, I would prefer that the loot simply be FFA. That way I actually get to be excited about every drop, rather than expecting to miss out on most drops, and trying to make sure that I grab the drops that are allocated to me.

Melee classes are in greater danger, why shouldnt they have a better shot at the loot in a FFA setting? It's not like ranged classes cant stand closer for a better chance at grabbing something.





Ultimately, what I'm getting at is this:

Seeing loot drop that you have a chance of grabbing: fun
Seeing loot drop that you cant grab: not fun



Instanced or FFA, the fun part remains the same. I dont think the current system solves anything.

(holy crap – it killed my first post!)

Anyway. I just want to say that I haven't read any discussions about looting so far and I don’t want to talk about looting options or why this game is FFA. I want to stick to the thread title and make a case for FFA looting. Just want to say…

I’d always play FFA.

Not that I haven’t tried other things in the past. I’ve been through D2, WoW’s and GW’s looting options. I’ve played PoE in parties with named loot, ffa with generosity and pure ffa (with timer ofc.).


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What does FFA do?

- FFA makes looting a competition.

It’s a fight between players and not the simple PvE. A fight if you want it that way. For me it adds excitement to the game. It speeds up my heart rate when I see a valuable item drop and makes me pray to get there in time. Because gear is something that matters greatly in all ARPGs. I can’t imagine D2 being the same game without FFA looting. It’s something that is crucial to the game’s atmosphere. An atmosphere, that’s full of “action”.

- FFA makes looting a skill.

As you get to know the game and it’s mechanics you learn what items are valuable and what items are not. You learn do differentiate between crap and the valuable stuff. You learn what items to hunt. At the same time you develop looting reflexes and a feeling for the right timing and the right “click”. Looting is something you can get better at. And that in itself is great! The process of getting better you can not only feel but also see, in the extra rare or the extra orb you’ll find in your inventory.

- FFA makes looting unfair.

I played a long time with a Marauder named Kaldius. I would consider myself quite decent at looting and Kaldius as well. Yet there was a striking difference: His computer and connection had at least thrice the performance I could boast of (which isn’t a very difficult thing to accomplish btw.). Getting any loot not assigned to me was near impossible and I even struggled to get my own. I still clearly remember to lose an exalted that way (the other time because I chatted with a friend). But since we agreed on FFA – it was fine with me. We all have different “chances” to grab our loot. Ranged chars may experience this a lot, I imagine. Melees do so as well if the battlefield expands and their loot is far away. I think the timer, introduced by GGG is doing a wonderful job here to get more “equality” into looting. Whenever I get depressed over “unfair” loot, I wish for more fairness! I want the same quality of loot as the other guy! I want “equality of the outcome”. But at a second glance, that’s the worst thing to wish for, since it reduces loot to a question of time and luck (more of time because luck would average out). What we need is “equality in the chances” of getting your loot. This leads me to the next point:

- FFA gives the player freedom.

A good experience of freedom needs to have equality of chances, i.e. the same rules and possibilities for all players (which instanced rng-loot would accomplish). However it must also let the player influence something based on his or her abilities, not the random-number-generator, to experience self-efficacy. And most of all freedom needs complexity. Complexity in a form, that there’s no single “right answer”. For looting in FFA there isn’t. You are confronted with a variety of things to balance. “Should I go trying to loot or rather stay alive? Should I try to kill this rare here while others go for that item over there? Is this item valuable enough or not?” You can even go into a social context with this: “If I let him have this item, can I count on him to leave me the next good one for my class?” Some may see this as trivial, but to me it’s something inherent to the nature of FFA loot. FFA is freedom of choice for the player.

- FFA let’s you kick the rng in the ass.

I excuse myself for the harsh words and one might be tempted to merge this with the point above. For me on the other hand, FFA makes it possible to be awarded for my personal skill rather than for my rng-luck. So i go about: "f*** you rng"

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I love FFA as much as I hate FFA. Everyone who’s played some martial arts game with friends and got beaten up badly even though he rules that game, knows the feeling. Some days you just seem to suck. And I get really angry about this. Yet you can get angry over all kinds of things. In the end it comes down to how you handle it for yourself. Sometimes I have bad days and sometimes others have good days. (Hope you know what I want to say with it ^^). The exalt Kaldius snatched away from me; I snatched back the other day (out of a chest in spider lair). And it was a very good feeling.

At last, FFA doesn’t have to determine the way you party up with people. In my group we still help each other out with orbs as well as drops if someone asks for it. We’d share the things we need and still we play FFA.


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For me there’s fun in FFA as there is in sports.

Let’s play hard and fair;
and have some fun together.





cheers,
ere



P.S. I think the timer is a wonderful "balance" device for looting. It seems the duration was increased over the last patches and still needs balancing. So...
@GGG: know what you want and get there. I'd prefer a bit more of a shorter timer (esp. on magic monster drops) since at times loot there feels instanced. Rares/bosses seem to be short enough.

I think Erenor made a fine post above.

1. I don't like FFA because of the competition. When I'm on a team, I very much prefer "one for all and all for one" over "screw you, too slow."

FFA, being a competition, is a form of PvP. Worse, it's forced PvP, with the ONLY other option being to solo.

2. FFA isn't even a fair playing field. As Erenor mentioned, the game has timers based on distances from the loot but completely ignores the imbalance between computer speeds and lag times.

Two players can have equally quick reaction speeds, but the player with less lag and a faster processor will have a huge advantage.

3. People stop fighting to loot. To me, this is the most egregious of all. Even if I get all the loot with my name on it, it burns me to see a teammate NOT helping while the fight rages on.

A lot of the pro-FFA'ers argue that people want instanced loot because they are upset over losing out on a special item. This isn't the case for me.

I would feel the same if I were able to snag 90% of the loot. I want fairness, equality, and NO competition among players on the same friggin team.

If I were able to modify the loot system, I'd leave the names on assigned items just like they are now, but simply have no timer. That way, the whole team can wait until after the fight is over.

This would also allow everyone to see all the loot that dropped. Left clicking on an item with your name would pick it up, and right-clicking on it would remove your name from it, making it available to anyone who wanted it.

Finally, I've no desire to see anyone who prefers FFA to lose that option, I just don't want to see it as the only option.

I've tried this FFA thing once, agreed upon in a party. Got ninjad of an exalt, first one I've seen drop in 6 months for me.

What I also dislike is when a player stops helping out in killing a tough mob because he decides to sit on an item with a timer until he manages to grab it.

Toggle loot mode switch when creating a party solves everything.

If we were to remove FFA loot, it wouldn't remove ninja looting.

If you can point out a game that doesn't have ninja looting, where game systems completely prevent it, please do.

"

Pretty_Boy_Guns wrote:

I now understand that I have never heard a responsible and logical case for FFA loot. Not a single one. I've been in the beta for maybe 2 months. Love the game. So I would like to understand it. It's not going anywhere after all.

This is the single most discussed topic on this forum. One thread alone reached several hundred pages of responses and there have been many other lengthy threads as well over the months. To say that you haven't seen a reasonable argument for FFA loot is to simply admit that you haven't bothered looking. If you're really curious about it, I would suggest using the search function to the left rather than rehashing these arguments yet again.

I don't play D3 but I've heard that their public partying system is practically abandoned despite D3's instanced loot mechanics. I don't really buy the argument that people would play public parties more if PoE had instanced loot.

... thx SwampDog for actually reading my post. =)

Another thought that came to me:

Right now we have this "western-style" trading system. Standing apart from each other, dropping our loot and racing for the other. It's a lot about trust.
(period)

And I like that, because it forces players (yes it forces them) to communicate effectively. Which is a pain in the ass sometimes (esp. with people not being able to chat).
[I had such a case last time I run a map. I was able to talk to him before opening it - but once we were in, no chance in getting a reaction. This is frustrating.]

But it's something I see as a very good point in group dynamics, since we are forced to communicate at the moment. Whether it be about looting behavior, last-hit coordination or loot splitting.

Reaching an agreement through chatting (or actions if applicable). This is something which will probably get lost (just as the trade-trust system is bound to vanish into oblivion) with more looting options. It will not be as bad as I imagine... sure. But it won't be the same either.

But it's something that I like about the current "unpolished" state of the game: Having to talk to each other ^^

btw. If you wanna team up for some maps - let me know =)

cheers,
ere

"

anubite wrote:

If we were to remove FFA loot, it wouldn't remove ninja looting.

If you can point out a game that doesn't have ninja looting, where game systems completely prevent it, please do.

I am totally confused how instanced loot could still be ninja'd, please explain further...


Erenor's post is well written & valid. I play with him & I personally hate FFA. I understand when I join his game it's FFA & if I feel in the mood for that then it's fine. The thing is, noone is trying to take his style of play away from him. People are asking for options.

If you like to run FFA loot then you should be able to, host a party, set the loot options to FFA & bob's your uncle. However if you don't like FFA currently your options are either play solo or wait until you find people you can trust in order to party. You may get lucky and find good folks sooner rather than later but you may also get ninja'd, get pissed & say f'it to partying up in general. With options people who don't enjoy FFA can host, set the options to instanced & voila...everyone's a winner.

Playing with people on your friends list really isn't the issue here, it's random public parties that are forced to FFA or GTFO. There is a total lack of public multiplayer in POE, for some reason people don't like it. At most you will find 2-3 open games (merc) at any one point. Tpap mentioned D3 has "practically abandoned" well POE's is categorically flatlined in comparison.

Loot options take nothing away form anyone it only adds to give people who hate FFA a better chance to play public parties without raging.

If GGG decide "this is Wraeclast play like an exile or GTFO" is how they want it then I guess it's up to them but they will suffer the consequences of that whether they be good or bad.