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Noctis256 wrote:
2.) Long, drawn out, attrition style boss fights (SEE WOW OR ANYTHING RECENT BY BLIZZ) are boring as F**K. Hey if I stand here and push enough buttons for long enough, I win, so I don't need to use alt F4 because they "programmed around it" - I call BS - it is MUCH more exciting to have damage spikes that can take out half your life in a shot BUT the flip side is:
Most fights in WoW have an enrage timer of sorts.. So yeah.
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Posted byYaeMosz#0872on Oct 10, 2013, 2:07:28 AM
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Qarl wrote:
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Jackel6672 wrote:
So it seems we might be misinterpreting what was written then? It came off as boss fights were balanced knowing that we may AltF4 out of there. So it allowed the use of spike damage in a more liberal way. Turning it into a game mechanic more so than a way for some easy cheese.
If this is not the case, I take back all of my posts lol.
Of course we balance knowing players will Alt-F4 out of there.
We also balance knowing players will never Alt-F4, or portal out, and want to be able to win that fight fairly.
We balance knowing that players will play solo.
We balance knowing they'll only ever do that fight rushed.
We balance knowing that players are only there for the loot.
We balance knowing that players are only there for a good challenge.
I have a choice to alt-f4 or not. There are in-game upsides to alt-f4ing that come from, well, not dying, but there are no downsides. So it's not really a choice, but a check as to whether or not I can hit that key combo fast enough when things get tough.
On the other hand, there are (at least ostensibly) upsides and downsides to solo vs. party, to rushing the game vs. playing slowly and carefully, and to picking a league that provides a level of challenge that I'm looking for. They're tradeoffs, and a big part of the game (at least for me) is making these choices and having them be meaningful. These are all explicit features of the game -- instant exit is not, and there's no (in-game) reason not to do it.
For example, Hardcore league exists. Why? It really doesn't have to, if someone wanted to just delete their character when they died, they could do this. But you've (GGG) provided a separate hardcore league, for people that want to play by a set of rules, and want to play with other people that also play by that same set of rules. (This is a good thing!)
IGN: SplitEpimorphism
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Posted bysyrioforel#7028on Oct 10, 2013, 2:09:02 AM
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Qarl wrote:
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Jackel6672 wrote:
So it seems we might be misinterpreting what was written then? It came off as boss fights were balanced knowing that we may AltF4 out of there. So it allowed the use of spike damage in a more liberal way. Turning it into a game mechanic more so than a way for some easy cheese.
If this is not the case, I take back all of my posts lol.
Of course we balance knowing players will Alt-F4 out of there.
We also balance knowing players will never Alt-F4, or portal out, and want to be able to win that fight fairly.
We balance knowing that players will play solo.
We balance knowing they'll only ever do that fight rushed.
We balance knowing that players are only there for the loot.
We balance knowing that players are only there for a good challenge.
So you are confirming that you part of your balance testing is using non game mechanics?
I take it you balance for a happy median, and go from there. Thats respectable, although not ideal when balancing game mechanics by incorporating non game mechanics in the testing.
I'm all for challenge though, so I am not too pissy about this. Just surprised. Never figured this would be something you had in mind when balancing boss fights.
"Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right!" Henry Ford
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Posted byJackel6672#4463on Oct 10, 2013, 2:14:16 AM
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Noctis256 wrote:
People seem to be forgetting something - Alt-F4 is NOT a game-specific "exploit" or "glitch" or anything - it's simply a windows OS shortcut for closing the current program/window that's been around FOREVER - it would have to be actively programmed against, and is simply a tool, not an exploit.
Actively programming against alt-f4 is not particularly hard. A logout timer would suffice. Remember, GGG doesn't trust the client with anything :).
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1.) Alt-F4 is not super easy to press if you come around a corner and get mobbed - you can die REALLY fast, so there's some skill involved, and if you can manage it every time, more power to you.
If you aren't particularly dextrous, you can rebind alt-f4 to an extra mouse button, or to the win key, or spacebar. (Or ctrl+w!)
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3.) there will NEVER. I repeat NEVER. be a "perfect" game. Even if GGG somehow magically COMPLETELY got rid of desync - so much insane server speed the entire population of earth playing the game wouldn't lag the servers...there is STILL: shi**y ISPs, bad hardware on the user side, power outtages, siblings attacking you while playing the game, cats jumping on keyboards, etc etc
there is a NEED for a program exit button because LIFE takes precedence over gaming most of the time - if you're a big enough nerd that it doesn't, I'm sorry, that's your personal problem.
If this is the case, remove the death penalty and remove hardcore league. They aren't necessary. Well, you can keep HC league if you really want it, but there's no need for an XP penalty in SC then. I'd like to see a strong argument in favor of an XP death penalty and also in favor of keeping the alt-f4 mechanic.
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I am totally fine with this (opinion) and support the devs in this decision, because it's the right one - the timer in D3 HC was stupid and frustrating - I'll give up a momentary immersion (boo hoo seriously?) for less frustration because my level 80 char died through no fault of my own
Why play HC, then? Just play SC, and if you died fairly, delete your character.
IGN: SplitEpimorphism
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Posted bysyrioforel#7028on Oct 10, 2013, 2:16:46 AM
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sorry, but enrage timers are NOT a rememdy for long boring boss fights.....they're STILL long and boring until you either win, or don't hit a certain damage bar, and then BAM YOU LOSE...that's not quite the same thing as a well-designed fight that isn't boring
I stand by what I said - WoW has made so much money while dumbing down gameplay for so long...ugh...I just hate that bland, boring mess of a game...good for blizz...they made money....but at the cost of the entire game dev industry taking cues from the game and making more bland games with less choices - this is why POE is unique - it harkens back to the "good ol' days" when PLAYERS chose how they wanted to play the game - devs didn't tell them "THIS IS WHAT YOU THINK IS FUN"
even Wow used to have more choice....it pandered to the dumber masses and now it's just a cluster....
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Posted byNoctis256#1789on Oct 10, 2013, 2:16:51 AM
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syrioforel wrote:
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Qarl wrote:
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syrioforel wrote:
Qarl, I can't reconcile your post with Chris's immediately followup. These two posts are at odds. If I don't use alt-f4, I'm playing a version of PoE that has alt-f4 disabled, so I'm playing a game that Chris says is unimaginable.
Why should it have to reconcile? We are a diverse bunch at GGG, and have diverse opinions about how things should be. This can lead to some spirited design discussions in the office. This improves the game greatly.
I'm not trying to nitpick, but I asked if Chris was saying (some particular thing).
Your post was that it was "not was he was saying, at all."
Then he followed up with a post reaffirming something that I read as close to (the particular thing I was asking about.)
He's either saying something close to what I asked, or he isn't. There's not much room for a middle ground there.
At some point you guys had to decide if alt-f4 should be kept in the game, if it should be considered an exploit, and so on. Judging by what I've read, it's in the game and not discouraged. A game with alt-f4 in it is, all other things being equal, (weakly) easier than one without. So you've had to compensate; knowing that alt-f4 is in the game lets you make the boss fights more difficult without making things too hard on the player. Once you balance around some feature getting used, meaning that difficulty has been increased based on its presence, it punishes players that don't use it.
I was curious whether or not this was the case -- whether or not the game was made harder, at some point, because of alt-f4. I want to know if I'm playing the game that your team has designed by not using alt-f4 -- as a player, I want to feel free to get every edge that the game will give me, and so to feel like I'm not cheating I want to know, firmly, what is or is not an exploit.
I expect the answer to that question to be a binary one. Then there's details as to how much harder, or whether or not an individual dev or member of your design team agrees with the feature. I expect those responses would differ from person to person. Those are matters of perspective and opinion. Whether or not alt-f4 was discussed in relation to difficulty or balance, and if decisions were made based on including this feature, is a matter of fact.
Your opinions on the issue certainly don't have to reconcile; I don't expect them to and I respect (and like hearing that there are) having different design ideas on your team.
(I apologize if my tone comes off as hostile; I don't mean to be. I'm concerned, though, and if the design philosophy behind PoE differs heavily from what I want out of a game, I'd like to know.)
From my many years of gaming experience, if you have to alt-f4 your either; bad, or rage-quit.
Because like someone else said, real pro's esc>exit. Esc>Exit .. how could that possibly be an exploit?
Its mind boggling how a hot-key allowed creates so much fuss. It only becomes an exploit when everyone abuses it. I don't see to much fun in Alt-F4'ing over and over because you cant kill something.
I wouldn't really want to continue playing any game that encouraged that sort of game play.
Oh wait, theirs hardcore. Shoot. Must of slipped my mind there for a second. Let me start over....
from my many years of gaming experience, alt f4 is an acceptable play-style for hardcore, because its never fun getting 95+ and then being dead from some stupid shit. If you cant accept that sort of play-style don't bother with it, and anyways there are other-ways going about it then alt-f4'ing to avoid death. But what can you do its h/c gotta love it :D I do.
On a side note, You shouldn't let a Developers Philosophy about their own game affect your experience. From knowing game developers personally I've found, they can become very frustrated when the players do things differently :) Also I've found, they can become quite annoyed having to think of ways to stop you from thinking of ways of doing things in ways they didn't think of ^-^ Another man's philosophy is never heavily tailored towards your own wants and needs, but they can certainly smack down a heavily built foundation ready to blossom into your philosophy heavily desirable for your satisfaction.
Stop thinking to much into things people, Enjoy the damn game.
FOR SALE LIST :: view-thread/510962
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Posted bybluesqq#3104on Oct 10, 2013, 2:18:36 AM
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Noctis256 wrote:
4.) GGG never said they programmed the game SO THAT people would use alt F4 - so all you people saying that maybe are missing the point. It would appear Chris and the gang are saying - it's a NECESSARY and useful TOOL, to have in the game, and SINCE there is the option that quick-fingered folk MIGHT be able to use it to get out of boring attrition style fights (see above) then they'd better have interesting/spikey fights.
This is where you are wrong. As has already been stated, it has been balanced knowing it can happen.
Therefore programmed.
There are other mechanics to use then both spikey, and long winded fights. Giving the boss spell block, for instance could be interesting. A boss that can remove buffs, or disable auras by making you recast them. There is alot that can be done in this game.
"Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right!" Henry Ford
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Posted byJackel6672#4463on Oct 10, 2013, 2:20:07 AM
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because syrio, if you just played SC, would YOU delete your char when you died? I think human nature makes playing in HC better because there's actual finality to it
I don't recall this ever being a huge debate in the glory days of D2 - everyone just loved the crazy choice-filled madness, and played as is - and that game had alt F4 same as like EVERY OTHER windows program EVER
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Posted byNoctis256#1789on Oct 10, 2013, 2:21:09 AM
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Jackel6672 wrote:
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Noctis256 wrote:
4.) GGG never said they programmed the game SO THAT people would use alt F4 - so all you people saying that maybe are missing the point. It would appear Chris and the gang are saying - it's a NECESSARY and useful TOOL, to have in the game, and SINCE there is the option that quick-fingered folk MIGHT be able to use it to get out of boring attrition style fights (see above) then they'd better have interesting/spikey fights.
This is where you are wrong. As has already been stated, it has been balanced knowing it can happen.
Therefore programmed.
There are other mechanics to use then both spikey, and long winded fights. Giving the boss spell block, for instance could be interesting. A boss that can remove buffs, or disable auras by making you recast them. There is alot that can be done in this game.
Your so dumb, the entire post went over your head.
FOR SALE LIST :: view-thread/510962
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Posted bybluesqq#3104on Oct 10, 2013, 2:22:14 AM
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Jackel,
"There are other mechanics to use then both spikey, and long winded fights. Giving the boss spell block, for instance could be interesting. A boss that can remove buffs, or disable auras by making you recast them. There is alot that can be done in this game."
Agreed - and I'd be willing to bet they'll use those mechanics too...just give it time - they've got plans for several more entire acts...
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Posted byNoctis256#1789on Oct 10, 2013, 2:22:45 AM
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