Chris: ALT-F4 LEGIT STRAT
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Yes yes.. posting funny pictures is funny thanks.
If the fights are designed such that the only way the player could possibly survive is to circumvent the game itself, then that is a problem and I cannot see how that could be considered otherwise. For a developer to admit that their fights are designed such that the player has to circumvent the game itself, that is a problem with the developer and I cannot see how that could be considered otherwise. When the players defend such a system, that is a sign that they do not actually want to play the mode they are playing, they do not want danger and they do not want risk and I cannot see how that could be considered otherwise. To me its like the developers of Mike Tysons PunchOut! Saying "look nobody can beat Tyson, unless they get really lucky, so we designed the game so that the players could just unplug it and then hop back in to fight Tyson again without any risk involved. I am not sure how else we could have designed the fight. Sure, I know we only give you a couple of lives but players just HATE losing, and admittedly, so do we, so we figure its just better to let people play the game without any risk at all." Aaaaaand - I'm out. "the premier Action RPG for hardcore gamers."
-GGG Happy hunting/fishing |
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" Witt, I'm just curious, since you've played this game for a long time... Did you expect that at one point, they would do something about Instant Logouts? I'm not trying to be a prick, I'm just wondering if you were under the impression that once the game became more stable, they would change it? You obviously knew ALT-F4 was unbannable, maybe you didn't think it was "accepted", but what does this statement really change? It's not like they design fights so that you have to ALT-F4 to beat it... obviously if you ALT-F4 you still have to go back to kill that boss, or just don't go back. Either way you fail. In order to succeed, you can't logout. So.. is it really that HUGE if you're allowed to logout? People still die on the HC ladder, sometimes instant logout doesn't do anything. I dunno, I always felt like it added to the "log in, kill stuff non stop" aspect of the game I love so much. I usually just spam maps or zones and once in a while I'll ESC-Exit because I rush through a doorway and get sourrounded (not even blaming desync here), or other things which the only way to prevent myself from dying would be to alter my play style and drastically slow down my pace. I love have an "oh shit timeout, take a breath, go back" button. Which is what ESC+Exit is... I dunno... I'm kinda sad that you hate this proclamation from Chris so much.. I honestly thought it wasn't that big of a deal The Russell Wilson Era
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" You and some other people are clearly misreading what Chris said. He never said that the fights are balanced in such a way that you HAVE to use esc->logout if you want to win them. Look at Mark's response for further clarification. Also saying that, because esc->logout is possible there is no danger or risk in the game, is super hyperbole. GGG banning all political discussion shortly after getting acquired by China is a weird coincidence.
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" I don't understand. I didn't attack anyone, I never "attack" players or participate in HC vs SC lol I honestly didn't even know this was a HC vs SC issue. All I know is, dying at level 88 fucking sucks. I build my character as such so that it does not die. I don't like glass cannons. But if my character is still in a situation where I'm probably gonna die? Fuck that. ESC+Exit It's not SC people flaming HC people. I play SC. I love this feature. It's not even about that lol The Russell Wilson Era
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Here's my position on Alt+F4 from earlier in the thread, slightly modified to include a new idea I had on the topic:
Don't you dare TL;DR this shit
Let's say you're playing Hardcore and you're in "semi-combat," by which I mean you're not in a fight just yet but there are monsters on the screen and they're bound to start attacking in a second or two. And then... power outage. All of a sudden you're sitting in a dark, lightless room.
What should happen to your character? If you think the answer is "stand still for 30 seconds taking damage and almost certainly RIP," your answer sucks. Power outages and other minor disasters do happen, and it seems to me that a lot of people are so blinded by hatred that they can't think about the innocent victims of long delays. No innocent should ever lose their entire Hardcore character, hours or even days of work, due to misguided attempts to punish others. Here's what should happen: the server should, as usual, try to communicate with your client, and after realizing your client isn't there anymore, it should log you out. This process isn't quite instantaneous, but computers are fast, so we're talking 1 to 5 seconds here. This would give you the maximum reasonable chance of keeping your Hardcore character despite a power outage. Now what if you pull your computer's power plug out of the socket deliberately? Same answer. Which means, of course, that you could pull your own cord to get yourself out of a Hardcore death. So be it. If you Alt+F4? Same answer; GGG can incorporate message-sending into the client's shutdown routine, but they shouldn't. Alt+F4 and a power outage should look exactly the same to the server. If you logout using the menu? Same answer; the only problem now is that it's not the same answer, because logouts are much faster, essentially instantaneous in comparison to Alt+F4. Therefore, I suggest that menu logouts do not cause the client to send a logout message, but instead cause the client to "play dead." The server's reactions would be exactly the same as reactions to a power outage or Alt+F4, but just in case it would send a "logout successful" TCP message to the client anyway once it determines the client dropped. When using menu logout, the client would pick up this message, stop playing dead ("psych!") and resume normal communications with the server. This would add a slight delay to logout death-dodges, balancing it against other methods of using the technique. "No, we should not be punishing players for losing power. For losing concentration, point conceded, but for the most part this post supports punishing players for circumstances beyond their control. That's not fun, that's not a skill-tester, it's just plain sadomasochism. Yes, I understand that part of the allure of hardcore actually is masochism (and to some extent snobbery over who is the most masochistic), but when you want people to suffer for outages, that's when you've gone too far. A good game designer plans out not just the primary consequences of his design choices, but also the side effects, anticipating them in advance and dealing with them using additional mechanics as necessary. Here the (proper) design choice is to prevent the innocent from being punished, the anticipation is that the "guilty" will have a loophole to slip through, and the additional mechanic is to tune the difficulty of the game assuming that players are aware of things like Alt+F4 and will utilize them strategically. Essentially, this is the strategic equivalent to legalizing drugs like marijuana; if something is "cheating," but for whatever reason punishing "cheaters" is a waste of time and resources, you simply change the rules so it's not cheating anymore. Not just that — you also rebalance the game under the assumption that it isn't cheating anymore, leading to encounters which actually pose significant threats your your character's life even if you are using the former "cheat." That point is important enough to repeat: difficulty is balanced under the assumption that you can use Alt+F4, leading to encounters which actually pose significant threats your your character's life even if you are using it. Let's not pretend that every Alt+F4 is successful, and that every character lives through it. Many do not. This is intended. Yet players continue to say Alt+F4 is cheating, despite clear indications from Chris that it isn't. When Chris says game difficult is balanced around Alt+F4, players say it shouldn't be, despite clear reasoning from me on why it's a necessary component of the game. They simply refuse to use a system which is made available for their use. You know what that reminds me of? The Self-Found League. Sure, there is trading enabled in this game... but trading is the Devil, and we shall have no part of it! We demand the entire game be rebalanced according to our wishes! Increased drop rates for the solo player! Is it just a matter of time before the anti-deathdodge extremists call for a "30 second disconnect delay" league, aka "Hardercore," that pays absolutely no attention to the reasons why GGG made the design choices they chose? Simply put, if you think Alt+F4 is cheating, you are flying directly in the face of a careful, deliberate game design choice made by the developers. What you want isn't quite Path of Exile, but a slightly different game with slightly different rules, no different from the SFL people. It's immature. Stahp. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Oct 10, 2013, 8:04:28 PM
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I alt f4 when I DC. Stupid fkn router. I made it to 88 on HC without alt f4ing or logging. He's still alive. The only person you cheat is yourself and I am happy in myself. Happy alt f4ing, regular awaits!
Return to this flameless sunder
Where exiles burn and the joyless wander; Frozen lore beneath chaotic thunder, Dominus returns to send us under. |
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" All I assumed is that the developers didn't intentionally design the game in such a way that circumventing it completely was intended. I assumed that yes, once the game was stable they'd force the player to remain in game for a few seconds prior to logging out to prevent people form cheesing the ladders. It's cool, evidently I am totally wrong and I have no idea what HC is. I seem to be in the extreme minority and I am not egotistical enough to say I'm right and everyone else is wrong. That said... @ScrotieMcB - thank you for the detailed response, but I do not agree with you in the slightest. What you described is not HC. HC is all about masochism, that's the only reason it exists, circumventing it defeats its purpose. The same way certain builds that allow the player not to actually engage with the content, also completely circumvent the point of HC and receive scorn and ridicule from the majority of the player base. Also, I think a SFL is the tits, and I couldn't care less if I am disagreeing with "careful game design" Custer had carefully laid out his battle strategy I am sure, it doesn't mean it was correct. "the premier Action RPG for hardcore gamers."
-GGG Happy hunting/fishing |
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" Today actually. It was horrible. Casually casual.
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Great job GGG, keep it up, we do appreciate the hard work and great game you have created!
^Best way to deal with all these negative people. |
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In a way it's ironical
You implemented an inovative sync code to refrain cheating and hacking and yet you let anyone cheat at the game by waking up from a nightmare when you are about to die? And I didn't get a macro rolling alt+f4 and /oos untill now... what a idiot I am! Because life is short, you shall make rains of all sort - Amarena, the Iron Man
- My IRON MAN witch build video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJOUcu0ioL4 - Do you want your witch wearing PANTS? check http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/19769 |
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