We players want an auction house

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Tantabobo wrote:

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yaqwes wrote:

Only the noob-scamming, item-flipping bastards are against the AH. They are the only winners of this shady "trading system" that PoE currently has. No one would buy 1 Chaos for 40 Alterations scam if people could browse other players' offers with fair trade prices easily in game.

Oh, and the stupid D3 argument:
AH had nothing to do with the terrible economy Diablo3 has. The root of the problems were the single currency = gold and the lack of gold sinks with controlled droprate. As time went on everyone had more and more gold forcing the price of the rare and desirable items skyrocket.
But wait, there are people just sitting on their orbs, hoarding tons of currency in PoE as well! They crashed this economy easily without AH. 100 exalted for a legacy kaom's? Who has that much? How? I tell you how: scamming, flipping, hoarding orbs and not using them as intended: crafting. "Protecting the PoE economy from the AH" is a huge lie. They just want to continue stealing new (uninformed) players wealth.

Offering 40 alterations for 1 chaos is not a scam, it is a bad deal but it is not a scam. You got what you payed for, it was just at a poor price. A scam would be if they offered you a Koam's Heart and placing a Koam's primacy that you don't see until after you click trade. That is a scam.

There is nothing shady about this system, you can clearly see what is being traded, are forced to highlight over the item before you can accept the trade. If you are to lazy/dumb to check what you are getting that is your fault, not the games. An AH won't solve this problem. This is a problem with you.

As for an AH itself, I am against them for many reasons mentioned in this thread, no reason to mention them again.
For the record, I rarely trade, usually only to buy a specific gem or sell multiple copies of uniques.

One of the definitions of "to scam" is "to swindle". And one of the definitions of "swindle" is to "deprive of by deceit". The "scammer" deceives the target by pretending that deal is decent for them both.

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vixien wrote:

No, "We" players don't. In future topics, please leave me out of your over generalized statements. Thank you.

Also I'm not a "noob scammer" or and "item flipping bastard"

But heres the thing, if you can't item flip...dont play lol.

Oh, and the AH DID DESTROY DIABLO 3.
60% of the players probably spent more time in the AH than they did playing.
Checking it every level for an upgrade. Auction house is Absolutely the worst idea ever and even blizzard knows that.

First off, Path of Exile has a Diablo 3 style auction house; it's just that GGG doesn't run it. All you need to do is go to some shop indexer, such as poe.xyz.is, and select the appropriate options...

...and there you go. All the joys of instantaneous, searchable buyouts at your fingertips. So quit whining; what you want is already out there.

However, this is a bad thing. A very bad thing.

A lot of your don't agree. For example, this mentality is common:

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yaqwes wrote:

Only the noob-scamming, item-flipping bastards are against the AH. They are the only winners of this shady "trading system" that PoE currently has. No one would buy 1 Chaos for 40 Alterations scam if people could browse other players' offers with fair trade prices easily in game.

Now, I happen to not be a noob-scammer nor an item-flipper (bastard is debatable). I like playing the actual game for the most part, so when the item I want can't be found with the instant-buyout options in xyz.is, I often make offers aren't lowball at all, in order to ensure I get the item I want instead of possibly offending and being ignored by the seller.

However, I totally support the right of someone to be an item-flipper, to sell low and buy high, to take advantage of suckers — like me — in order to profit themselves. Because I don't really consider it scamming, I consider it outplaying.

In all honesty, there is some kind of perverse groupthink going on with the idea that someone who trades 40 Alterations for 1 Chaos is being scammed. Is it a fraudulent Chaos, which will poof after logout like a D2 duped high-rune? No? Then it's a transaction that came about by mutual agreement by both parties, where both clicked the "Accept" button on the trade window? Then how exactly is that a scam? What fraud took place?

None. One player just evaluated items better.

When people say they've been "scammed," or that they "scammed" someone, what they really means is that one party profited when contrasted with established market values. Which means: it's a concept entirely dependent on established market values. But what if there were none? What if there wasn't this cheat sheet on the internet you could go to and search by buyout, and instead there was much, much more disagreement about what items were worth? What if the only way you had to know the difference in value between an Alt and a Chaos was that one said "Reforges a rare item with new random properties" and the other said "Reforges a magic item with new random properties?" If no market value is established, how could you even judge if you were the "scammed" or the "scammer"?

What this game needs is less deterministic item valuation, not more deterministic. Loot is more exciting when you're evaluating it primarily on the merits of how much you need it, and on what kind of other player would need it, and how badly; loot becomes a dull game of count-the-chaos-to-an-exalt if everything that drops has a searchable price.

Returning to yaqwes' comment: Because I support people deciding for themselves what items are worth, because I don't think they should count on a community reference... yes, I do want there to be flippers. But also wannabe flippers who try to figure out how to flip, but fail doing it, and suckers who get "ripped off," and the whole gamut in between. What you want is sameness and fairness for everyone, a kind of Communism of trade knowledge, giving everyone equal information rather than reserving information for those who have earned it by evaluating correctly on their own. So I say fuck your communism, and long live independent valuation.

Path of Exile doesn't need an Auction House; it needs the Auction House it already has taken away. Well, maybe not taken away... but at least neutered. I have no problem with people searching by item stat to found out who has the item they seek, so they can start a haggling process. That's cool. But search for how much... that shit needs to stop.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

In all honesty, there is some kind of perverse groupthink going on with the idea that someone who trades 40 Alterations for 1 Chaos is being scammed. Are it a fraudulent Chaos, which will poof after logout like a D2 duped high-rune? No? Then it's a transaction that came about by mutual agreement by both parties, where both clicked the "Accept" button on the trade window? Then how exactly is that a scam? What fraud took place?

The answer showing how it is scamming was posted a few posts above yours:

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One of the definitions of "to scam" is "to swindle". And one of the definitions of "swindle" is to "deprive of by deceit". The "scammer" deceives the target by pretending that deal is decent for them both.

Should scamming be allowed in PoE? My answer is yes; this is a hardcore game, survival of the fittest, roflstomping of the dumbest. I wouldn't want it to be any other way.

There is no deceit in it, because the full rules text of both items, fully explaining their functionality, is clearly displayed to both players. That's like saying a multiple-choice test is a scam, because it offers you options which are false.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

There is no deceit in it, because the full rules text of both items, fully explaining their functionality, is clearly displayed to both players. That's like saying a multiple-choice test is a scam, because it offers you options which are false.

Any item has both a combat use but also a trade use. Their combat functionality may be fully explained, but certainly not their trade one.

If the person was being honest he would tell him "Loloolol, fcking noob, please hit accept, lololol". But he doesn't, he puts on a facade until the transaction is complete.

If both parties are well aware of the market for the given items, then one party can still pay higher than market average because of numerous reasons, but in such case both are able to do informed decisions within a reasonable timeframe.

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mazul wrote:

Any item have both a combat use but also a trade use.

Bullshit. Items have combat uses and trade valuations. A valuation isn't a use; furthermore, the valuation is dependent on only two things: how many people would want to use it (which is fully dependent on its usefulness, which means is fully a function of its rules text), and how common it is. If you know both the rules text and the approximate droprate of an item, you should be able to determine its approximate trade value without any assistance from anyone.

All you need to know to figure an approximate droprate of something is to farm long enough.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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mazul wrote:

Any item have both a combat use but also a trade use.

Bullshit. Items have combat uses and trade valuations. A valuation isn't a use; furthermore, the valuation is dependent on only three things: the use itself (how useful is it), how many people would want to use it (which is also dependent on its use), and how common it is. If you know both the rules text and the approximate droprate of an item, you should be able to determine its approximate trade value without any assistance from anyone.

Can I use item X to get item Y? Yes, by transfering the item X to him. Isn't that a possible use of item X? Well of course of it is.

Just like a 100 dollar bill can be used to get an item with a "100 dollar" price tag in a store, but also used to make a paper airplane.

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mazul wrote:

Can I use item X to get item Y? Yes, by transfering the item X to him. Isn't that a possible use of item X? Well of course of it is.

A transfer is not a use. Owning a car, or selling a car, or buying a car, isn't using a car. "Trade use" borders on a contradiction in terms, because it's generally items which aren't being used which are offered by both players.

Value depends on use. For all trades, either the end recipient of an item is a user, or the item never found use. An item might change hands multiple times, but it is only its use (and scarcity) which determine how much it is worth while it changes hands. And with zero potential use comes zero value.