Iron Reflexes

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Cronos988 wrote:

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Sharkyman wrote:

Alright just because I'm aweful @ math,

Is this the correct formula?

Total Armor =(1 + Armor% + "Armor and Evasion"%)*(Base Armor + Base Evasion*(1 + Evasion%))

"Armor and Evasion"% = 24% , in the case of leather and steel. And when I write x% I'm refering to x/100

Just checking so I have understod you guys. Thank you in advance! :)

No, that would be a multiplicative formula. The formula is additive:

Total Armour = Base Amour *(1 + Armour% + "Armour and evasion %") + Base Evasion *(1 + Evasion% + Armour% + "Armour and Evasion%")

Thank you man. I can see where I went wrong with that! This clears it up for me. Conclusion, armor% nodes is great when using this keystone, regardless.

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Keyen wrote:

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Cronos988 wrote:

And for your information, you get more armor with a full armor stuff than a evade/armor IR stuff...

is this still true? im thinking about getting IR, but maybe it is just better to invest more in str. and get full armor?

even if you invest more in str you will have lots of dex for being a duelist and most our nodes walk there, also note most of what we wear is from drops and we can't kinda have lucky and make things 100% way we want, right now my armor and helmet are pure dodge for over then 250 both with some nice slots too its work well with the unawavering so you can't be stoped (save for chills)

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Cronos988 wrote:

No, that would be a multiplicative formula. The formula is additive:

Total Armour = Base Amour *(1 + Armour% + "Armour and evasion %") + Base Evasion *(1 + Evasion% + Armour% + "Armour and Evasion%")

Why should Evasion Rating benefit from both +armor% and +evasion%. It's illogical, it should benefit only from one of those.

Now every Duelist MUST have Iron Reflexes, because it far more better than just evasion or hybrid gear.

I try to find a way to not take Iron Reflexes, but I have no other choice.

What do you think about it ?

Whether or not Iron Reflexes is better than mixed Armor/Eva gear depends a lot on diminishing returns.

Another advantage of a mixed defense is the synergy effect between defenses that isn't properly expressed in numbers alone.

Due to the Armor mechanic, amor is more effective against multiple small hits, but less effective against a single, large hit.

Due to the evasion mechanic, single large hits are made less likely, and elemental damage added to weapon attacks is also mitigated.

Consequently, a mixed defense, though inferior in numbers, may well provide superior actual survivability.

The real issure with Iron Reflexes is the synergy with unwavering stance. It is that synergy which makes the Keystone OP.

I played several life stacking Iron Reflex characters in closed beta and while they did tank well against most physical mobs I always encountered the same problems: elemental attacks hurt a lot and chaos damage totally rapes the character. Also you still cannot reliably tank the most dangerous physical attacks (Brutus, Vaal, extra damage extra crit rare bears) and have to kite those.

In open beta I decided to give evasion a try and have been playing a hybrid armor/evasion/life dual wield (dual strike, cleave, viper strike) Duelist with Arrow Dodging keystone for about a week now and got to say it has been a positive surprise. I have concentrated most on life, then evasion, max resists and finally some armor and 4 endurance charges (+1 later from Oak). I'm currently doing merciless act 2 with 3k life, about 45% evade chance and 1,5k armor. Resistances are at about 50% and almost maxed with endurance.

I have experienced no significant survivability issues versus regular melee mobs compared to a pure armor build. It's easy to get enough armor to reliably handle normal mobs with no problem and I can still use granites to get about 15k armor. Mobs like bears and golems are a breeze, they only hit me once in three attacks which is plenty of time to heal with flasks/regen/leech as long as you don't get surrounded by 5 of them. I don't plan on tanking Brutus or Vaal but neither should an armor build.

However, I have experienced a giant boost to survivability against elemental and chaos mobs, especially chaos snakes in act 2. Never have they been so trivial to beat with any character I have played: with Arrow dodging I can literally stand in the middle of a pack of 10 snakes without taking any significant damage. Those mobs are a horror to face with zero evasion. Same applies to stuff like elemental skeleton archers.

Final addition to my build has been Immortal Call which I can use against super hard hitting mobs for a few seconds of invincibility, during which I apply 4 viper charges to a few enemies and then kite the mob to death. The existance of this skill has made me doubt the value of armor as a whole. Against a large mob it's possible to keep your character permanently under the buff if you have enough max endurance charges.

I have not reached maps yet so I'm not sure how this build will fare there. However I'm quite sure the most dangerous mobs in maps are not physical ones but stuff like high level chaos snakes against which armor does squat. All in all I don't think Iron Reflex is not as strong as all this hype would suggest.

-Ropetus

If you have IR, should the extra evasion % per frenzy charge also increase armor? I'm asking because I was thinking of taking the extra evasion % per frenzy charge passive and I do have IR but dont want to waste a refund point. Anyone know?

Hi ho,
so as usual a question about IR.

Lets say I have 500 armor and 500 evasion, without IR and for example with L&S I get:

500*1.24 + 500*1.24 = 1240.

With IR:

I have 1000 armour and 0 evasion and get

1000 *1.24 + 0 * 1.24= 1240

SAME VALUE?

So it is all about what you like more.

Without IR:

Chance to not get damage due to evasion. Evasion success, enemy attack misses. Evasion fail, enemy attack hits and 500 armour lead to a reduction of damage.

With IR:

Evasion is 0. Enemy will allways hit me, BUT now I have 1000 armour, so the damage reduction is twice than compared to when I don't convert all my evasion?

Do I understand it right? Is it just to support what like more.

Evasion: May or may not get damage?
Armour: Always damage but at a lesser rate?

Extreme example:

Evasion:

Armour= 0, Evasion= 99.9%. An enemy would only hit you once in 1000 attacks, but that attack will kill you because you don't have damage reduction.

Armour:

Armour: 100000, Evasion: 0%. The damage reduction is kinda like 99.9%. An enemy hits you a 1000 times and never misses, because you have no evasion but those hits are reduced to almost no damage because you have such a high damage reduction?