Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

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Aixius wrote:

That's an interesting response to the post you quoted, considering that it was all sarcasm.
The pace of the game can be controlled by any number of things, from loot dropping to stash management to build planning to bathroom breaks. It certainly does not boil down to "complaints about pace = complaints about the loot system"...that's some special deductive logic there.

Pace isn't a "strawman argument" as Squirry said, it's a real reason that some people don't group. It was never meant to be the sole argument for anything, only part of an overall discussion. Not sure why any of you anti-FFA players would latch onto it like it was the last hurrah of the pro-FFA players.

Yes pace is controlled by loot, player damage, Monster health, stash management, socializing, etc. It's not 'special' logic to point out that when players complain about pace they are in part complaining about the loot system.
**Because the timer (FFA) loot system increases the pace of groups.**

I am not 'latching' on to anything I am just responding to a post made by you or slayer.

edit: btw I knew that the post I quoted was sarcastic.

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wrathmar wrote:

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Wrathmar wrote:

The pace of multiplayer is controlled by the loot system. So when someone complains about pace they are in fact complaining about the loot system.

The pro-FFA posters act like half the players enjoy FFA and the other half doesn't. When the fact is that >10% like the current system but they are very vocal.

Yes pace is controlled by loot, player damage, Monster health, stash management, socializing, etc. It's not 'special' logic to point out that when players complain about pace they are in part complaining about the loot system.
**Because the timer (FFA) loot system increases the pace of groups.**

I am not 'latching' on to anything I am just responding to a post made by you or slayer.

edit: btw I knew that the post I quoted was sarcastic.

Your argument was that complaints about pacing were in fact complaints about the loot system, despite the fact that there are many non-loot-related factors that also affect pacing. So yes, it was either poor logic or you were intentionally omitting information to make your argument relevant.

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Aixius wrote:

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wrathmar wrote:

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Wrathmar wrote:

The pace of multiplayer is controlled by the loot system. So when someone complains about pace they are in fact complaining about the loot system.

The pro-FFA posters act like half the players enjoy FFA and the other half doesn't. When the fact is that >10% like the current system but they are very vocal.

Yes pace is controlled by loot, player damage, Monster health, stash management, socializing, etc. It's not 'special' logic to point out that when players complain about pace they are in part complaining about the loot system.
**Because the timer (FFA) loot system increases the pace of groups.**

I am not 'latching' on to anything I am just responding to a post made by you or slayer.

edit: btw I knew that the post I quoted was sarcastic.

Your argument was that complaints about pacing were in fact complaints about the loot system, despite the fact that there are many non-loot-related factors that also affect pacing. So yes, it was either poor logic or you were intentionally omitting information to make your argument relevant.

You make a fair point. My original statement did not include the other non-loot factors of pace.

In my opinion group pace is controlled by
1.Player damage vs monster health
2.loot allocation
3.socializing
4.stash management
5.non-game factors

in that order.

And the point is still relevant.

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wrathmar wrote:

You make a fair point. My original statement did not include the other non-loot factors of pace.

In my opinion group pace is controlled by
1.Player damage vs monster health
2.loot allocation
3.socializing
4.stash management
5.non-game factors

in that order.

And the point is still relevant.

I know it didn't, and you didn't include them because it would have made your original statement look like this:

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wrathmar wrote:

The pace of multiplayer is controlled by:
1.Player damage vs monster health
2.loot allocation
3.socializing
4.stash management
5.non-game factors

So when someone complains about pace they are in fact complaining about the loot system.

Which, as you can see, would have made your point far less relevant, because when someone complains about pace they could in fact be complaining for any number of reasons.


So now we're back to the original point: that pace is a legitimate reason why some people don't group (not a strawman argument), and pacing is affected by more than just loot allocation.

There is no doubt that pace is a legitimate reason when discussing reasons why people don't pub I have never denied that, in fact my thread confirmed it to some degree as the second most popular reason. "Pacing" is quite a generic term tho as people's pacing issues ranged from "tending to the kids" to "I just like to look at every item & take my time".

I am not trying to argue that pacing isn't significant but I am not going to let it be stated as the main reason for people not partying, which is what some of the pro-ffa crowd would have you believe. Pacing is what it is, there is not much that can be added to the game to help the numerous reasons that cause the various pacing issues other than providing a pack of condoms & a can of red bull with your beta key.

Looting on the other hand can be quoted with some degree of confidence as "the main" reason people don't like to party in POE & it is something that can be remedied. As I have said a million times, adding options will not take away anything from the game, noone loses & everyone gains. If you like FFA, play it, if you like instanced, play it, job done.

Problem is. It's not as simple as everyone wins. The people which like FFA will lose players who play with FFA loot, but may not.love it. The devs may not like it in their game, and only add it with extreme reluctance. The only people that win, outright, are those that want loot options.

For the record, everytime I hear the phrase, "everyone wins". I think of a coach handing out participation trophies to kids who came in last during a race.

Because in reality, everyone wins, just doesn't happen.

Edit: forgot to mention. Other people who lose are those who did.not care for FFA at first, but who gradually learned to enjoy it. These people would've automatically chosen instanced loot, and would have missed out learning to enjoy FFA.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

Edit: forgot to mention. Other people who lose are those who did.not care for FFA at first, but who gradually learned to enjoy it. These people would've automatically chosen instanced loot, and would have missed out learning to enjoy FFA.

missed out on ffa loot and enjoy it? think id rather get enema's every day and learn to enjoy them more.

If you were to allow instanced loot as an option, it would affect how IIQ works. Right now, disregarding map bonuses and personal IIQ bonuses, each full party instance has +250% IIQ or 250% more drops on average. If we don't change how the system works and just add instanced loot, each full party instance would have a staggering +1250% IIQ or 5 times more drops than a FFA group. If we removed the IIQ bonus, it would still be +500% IIQ due to the 5 extra people (100% IIQ each); twice the drops of FFA. The only solution to this would be to decrease the IIQ of each player as more people join the party. A party of two would have 75% base IIQ each, a party of 6 50%. Now do you think this is a good solution? Punish players for partying?

Map IIQ works the same way. How exactly would you allocate it? Each instance of loot gets the bonus? It gets divided per loot instance? Is this fair to the players? Is it fun to lose IIQ for grouping?

On the topic of maps, know that right now, it's pretty much a waste to run high level maps by yourself, unless you hate everyone in your league that's 75+. Now consider how everyone gives the map to the maker so you can keep the map train running. In FFA, it's easier to arbitrate distributes since you can see the map drop. What about in instanced loot? How would you tell if someone took a map from the maker or not? There's a fundamental breakdown in trust with this system. There's no teamwork there, only 6 players in their own little worlds.

In conclusion, instanced loot isn't the perfect solution you people envision it to be.

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D3 made some stupid mistakes with multiplayer. It actually felt punishing to play with more people, especially in public. Because in public a lot of times you would find people below your skill level and when I was playing that meant that the game was much harder for you at that point than it would be to play it solo. The problems apparently haven't changed much, you can go look at their forums right now and see people asking "Why can't we play monster power in coop?". D3 has too many other issues to try to compare it to this game. I loved the loot system in D3 but hated it in about every other aspect.

Whenever D2 guys post in here they usually say "No I played solo for items and when I played multiplayer it was just for exp". D2 is dominated by pick it bots now. At what point did most people find the loot system exciting? Sounds like D2 had the same problem this game has. People play solo to not have to fight over the drops.

While I can't point out a specific time when your question happened, it was likely sometime between the 12 years the game has been played.

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How would some different looting options alienate its base clientele?

Options themselves will not alienate them, just the fact that people would only play instanced loot is what would alienate them. Instanced loot = single player. Even more then people play right now. Instanced loot leaves no reason to party except for xp. Which in this game, since they allow multi boxing (ATM) will make the game stale.

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des people dealing with it mean that the game wouldn't benefit by more options? I bugs me to think that people are "dealing with" a fairly big aspect of the game. I would like to see the majority of the player base really enjoying all of its systems and not dealing with them. Many times I have seen someone post one time that they want the loot system changed and then not post again. Their opinion is just as valid and important as they people who post many times on the subject.

You keep putting words into peoples mouths. A small vocal minority compared to the overall population seem to want this change. I currently enjoy this game, and I also "deal" with the loot system knowing full well that it is as the game was intended. This is one of the few games where I have seen devs this active on the forums, and its awesome. It also leads to a lot of whining and trying to get them to pander to how they want to play.

Hopefully they come out and say what they're planning soon, or atleast just tell everyone they're leaving it alone.

I disagree with everything you said Jackel.

Gotta love the folks who say "instanced is bad cos then everyone will play instanced and noone will want to play FFA"...THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT YOU IDIOTS!