Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

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Daemonjax wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

Diablo 3 was instanced and felt very fast paced to me.

D3 was not fast-paced at all... and why on Earth were you grouping with others in D3, anyways? ;)

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MetavoidX wrote:

I hope GGG find solution to this as currently I never play public multiplayer anymore - after I had a Portal Gem stolen.

How was it stolen? It's not yours until you pick it up! :D

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MetavoidX wrote:

The current timers are too fast for me. Being ranger I stand on egde of screen.

I group with a particular Ranger all the time, and he doesn't stand at the edge of the screen. We race for the same loot all the time (him being ranged, I being melee).

Like I said it felt fast to me. I don't really understand why people say that it is slow. It doesn't really matter whether I was grouping in PUBs or playing with friends. If the looting mode feels fast paced with friends then it can be just as fast paced with strangers. I didn't group as much but I still enjoyed hoping into public games just to socialize/help out newer players.

The "how was it stolen" argument is getting tired. When an item is assigned to you with a timer and someone else snatches it up as soon as the timer ends....it will always feel to a lot of people like it was stolen, hence why people come in here to ask for a different system.

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Arcis wrote:

i find it weird that people act like they're "losing" items or that they're "stolen" when they are randomly assigned. who says it's fair that you get the item? there's nothing keeping track of who has gotten what, assigning things at a fair rate. in a game where many items are basically worthless but on rare occasion, something extremely valuable drops, there is no really fair way to systematically distribute loot. when that exalted orb drops, it's almost definitely going to be the only one that will drop for your public party. why is it fair that one person has exclusive rights to it? it isn't.

the thing that does need to be solved, however, is the fact that ranged classes don't have as good of a chance to get loot as melee. there is a solution to this that actually makes sense within the context of the game world. it doesn't actually make sense that a monster would drop all his loot in a neat little pile at the base of his feet after he gets his face rearranged by your 2-handed mace. so, what if drops are placed at a random location in a radius around the monster? it'd be like you beat it out of him and it went flying. and this way, ranged classes would have a random chance of being closer to the item than melee. to me, that's a better solution than timers, because people won't feel like they are having items "stolen" from them, which is a fallacy anyway, and also when an extremely valuable item drops, you'll still have a chance of getting it, instead of it being assigned to a player arbitrarily.

It's fair that a player gets to have a portion of the loot that he earned by being a contributing member of the party.

IMO it is fair for the game to randomly allocate loot to a player in the party. Its fair because its RANDOM. Why would you complain that another party member simply had better luck. Thats sort of like complaining that someone you know finds better items than you in his single player game than you found in your single player game. If you want to find more and better items then use the item rarity and item quantity gems/affixes.

In the current system someone can lose all of the decent items to his party simply because they are better at getting to the loot and he is more focused on killing the monsters. This system is not designed to be fair.

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Daemonjax wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

Diablo 3 was instanced and felt very fast paced to me.

D3 was not fast-paced at all... and why on Earth were you grouping with others in D3, anyways? ;)

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MetavoidX wrote:

I hope GGG find solution to this as currently I never play public multiplayer anymore - after I had a Portal Gem stolen.

How was it stolen? It's not yours until you pick it up! :D

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MetavoidX wrote:

The current timers are too fast for me. Being ranger I stand on egde of screen.

I group with a particular Ranger all the time, and he doesn't stand at the edge of the screen. We race for the same loot all the time (him being ranged, I being melee).

1) Yes, D3 is not faster. They have bigger inventory, so you don't have to identify it right away. However, people isn't really complain about "slow", but people complain others being off combat (their heart/focus is not in the fight, really, nothing to do with slow).

2) Entitle is a different thing. It is legitimate or entitle to, however, some reason he failed, he feels it is the environment that caused the problem.

3) There are more than being ranged. You are slowed down you are being hit, casting, mouse precision, and etc.

So I have argued a lot in these forums about this system. I am sure some of the people that I have argued with have wondered if I have even tried public games. Maybe I am being unfair and haven't given it a fair shake? Well I decided to try it again today just because I like to be social and I wanted to see how long I could do it without thinking about how much I dislike the loot system.

I made it less than five minutes with only a couple other players near me. First I would like to note that an exalted orb dropped. I have never found one before and the exalted was allocated to the guy next to me. I have no problem with this and was happy for the guy. It was his luck.

However when a chisel dropped with my name on it, I ran right towards it like I am supposed to in this system. The other caster I was with happned to be standing closer to it than me and was able to ninja it up right when the timer ended. Of course chisels aren't the best items ever or anything but they are good pieces and I really wanted to pick it up. I politely told the guy that it was allocated to me and unsurprisingly he would not let me have it.

This is a great example of why I just cannot except this system. I do not enjoy public games and either have to solo or wait for a close buddy. This is ridiculous.

I have to say in my current experience with teaming the timers aren't sufficient, at least for skill gems. I honestly don't care too much if I miss a yellow, they drop frequently enough and you really have no idea whether that yellow was good or garbage anyway. Skill Gems on the other hand, are the key to making your character work, you really can't make a 'build' if you don't have the right skills. I've lost skill gem after skill gem, even when I'm standing right next to it because it's difficult to tell the difference between them and currency. Ultimately I feel as though the current system rewards team players who patiently sit and spam click on a timer'd item rather than rewarding the player who's still busy killing the bad guys.

A cut throat loot system sounds like a good idea for the cut throat league, but I'd much rather have instanced looting so I can actually focus on fighting. I'd settle for instanced looting for things like currency/skill gems, or at the very least upping the timers some. Until then I'll be soloing.

Summary:

Looting options:
1) Need for Greed (roll between first requester and owner)
2) Extend Timer (set by developers)
3) Extend Timer (set by own player)
4) Free for All
5) Only for Me (not show to public)
6) Only for Me (show to public)
7) Class Points Earn
8) Extend Timer (keep alive in combat)
9) Need for Greed (Delay roll - time limit for requester, and only owner needs to click)
10) Extend Timer (set by party leader)

Settings:
1) Global - across all leagues
2) League - different league has different looting options
3) Party - different party has different looting options

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1) Need for Greed (roll between first requester and owner)
Pros:
- Respect the owner / entitle person.
- Maintain FFA, where only first person can roll with the owner
Cons:
- People keep pressing for need, even their inventory is full, and ended up dropping it?
- Take time to implement (both client and server side)
- Remember previous roll winner for points earn in a party
- Those who are far away may not able to get the roll
- Too many popup (too many good items belong to you only) may slow down the game.

2) Extend Timer (set by developers)
Pros:
- You got more time to loot
Cons:
- May still endup in an argument like this, never end.
- Slow down the game as players wait for the time to expire

3) Extend Timer (set by own player)
Pros:
- You can set your timer
Cons:
- Everyone is going to set 99 seconds, and the point is?
- Slow down the game as players wait for the time to expire

4) Free for All
Pros:
- Being more competitive and exciting
(is there more?)
Cons:
- Defeat the purpose of co-op play, reduce party chemistry
- Players stand-still just to wait for the timer, thus, slow the game
- Players looting whatever, inventory being full, then go back to town, thus, slow the game (same as above)

5) Only For Me (not show to public)
Pros:
- Secure items
- No slow down on the game, items can be picked after combat
Cons:
- Wasting items that might be useful for other party members
- Reduce party chemistry, reduce conversation

6) Only For Me (show to public)
Pros:
- Secure items
- Better party chemistry with more conversation in chat (trade, ask for item information, ...)
- No slow down on the game, items can be picked after combat
Cons:
- Other ask for items, may require to go back, and slow the game / wasting item

7) Class Points Earn
Pros:
- Make use of item for the proper class
- Fair to all classes
- Discourage farming character, encourage perfect party (all 6 classes in one party)
Cons:
- Take time to implement
- Problem with the same class on a party
- May not work for rare built

8) Extend Timer (keep alive in combat)
Pros:
- No slow down on the game, items can be picked after combat
- Players can focus on fighting, and encourage team fighting / efficiency
- Maintain FFA option
Cons:
- Requires to wait for owner / whole party to be out of combat
- Implementation time
- Items never expire due to owner wants to keep fighting (with a radius?)
- Too many items that covered the screen before combat is done

9) Need for Greed (Delay roll - roll between requester within a time period, or FFA after)
Pros:
- Everyone has a chance to roll, as you either wait for the timer to expire, or roll with other requests.
- Maintain FFA (once delay timer expired)
- Respect owner / entitle person (anyone click on the item between the timer can roll with the owner)
Cons:
- People keep pressing for need, even their inventory is full, and ended up dropping it?
- Take time to implement (both client and server side)
- Remember previous roll winner for points earn in a party
- Too many popup (too many good items belong to you only) may slow down the game.

10) Extend Timer (set by party leader)
Possibility to set it to infinite ("Only for Me") or to 0 (FFA), with different timer choices in between. Every party can adjust to their optimal balance.
Pros:
- May adjust expectation accordingly


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Please let me know if I missed any points here.

The current system also combines the worst of both worlds. Due to the minimal allocation time you still have to fight for the items that were allocated to you. You don't have enough time to finish off the rest of the mobs and then go for the item most of the time. It ends up with players being more worried about the loot than the enemies. This kind of competition can discourage people to team up, which shouldn't happen in an online RPG.

On the other hand, when items are randomly allocated to players, you lose a chance to get gear you could need. With the huge variety of builds, a lot of classes have use for a lot of the items that drop. Given that most people have multiple characters, I doubt that good drops will be shared or given to the classes in need. The 'who gets what' can be a problem even among friends, if 3 people want the same item. So I honestly don't think that the loot competition adds much to the game except frustration.

I would suggest a purely free loot system for the cut-throat league and an individual loot system for everything else. Weapons should have a higher chance of being allocated to the appropriate classes.

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villain88 wrote:

The current system also combines the worst of both worlds. Due to the minimal allocation time you still have to fight for the items that were allocated to you. You don't have enough time to finish off the rest of the mobs and then go for the item most of the time. It ends up with players being more worried about the loot than the enemies. This kind of competition can discourage people to team up, which shouldn't happen in an online RPG.

On the other hand, when items are randomly allocated to players, you lose a chance to get gear you could need. With the huge variety of builds, a lot of classes have use for a lot of the items that drop. Given that most people have multiple characters, I doubt that good drops will be shared or given to the classes in need. The 'who gets what' can be a problem even among friends, if 3 people want the same item. So I honestly don't think that the loot competition adds much to the game except frustration.

I would suggest a purely free loot system for the cut-throat league and an individual loot system for everything else. Weapons should have a higher chance of being allocated to the appropriate classes.

Never had a problem with friends, because I know they will consider me.

As for FFA in cut throat, I can agree with that. The reason it works better is, you can immediately quit the party, and kill that guy to get your loot back.

I personally like FFA loot. It does add another form of fun to the game.

One of the things I loved in Diablo and Diablo 2 was trying to beat everyone to the loot that the bosses/mobs dropped.

Ninjalooters need to understand that some players feel hurt, and feel like they have been done wrong when you loot the item that to them, felt like it should have been theirs. Carebears need to understand that ninjalooters don't enjoy a completely safe system.

Please, please, puhlease use a system that offers features to please both.
Not one or the other, not neither, but both.

One system that offers features to both, or two systems that the party leader can choose from.

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villain88 wrote:

The current system also combines the worst of both worlds.

It certaily doesn't combine the best of both worlds, as explained in my previous post. It sits somewhere near the middle, but more towards the ninja side. It doesn't really help people that don't like ninja looting.

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villain88 wrote:

This kind of competition can discourage people to team up, which shouldn't happen in an online RPG.

I agree. From what I've seen, Chris @ GGG is a pro at ninja looting and he really enjoys it. Not sure about the rest of the team. I don't think that's a good thing for the game, to be honest, because it might lead to lack of appropriate action to create a system that pretty much everyone is happy with. I believe that is possible, as explained in my previous post, it just needs to combine the best of both worlds, whilst avoiding the very extremes that cause people to leave the game. A pitfall is a system that sits somewhere in the middle that nobody enjoys because it lacks the features that either camp loves.

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villain88 wrote:

I honestly don't think that the loot competition adds much to the game except frustration.

Disagree. As mentioned in my previous post, individual loot reduces the feeling of competition over loot which is considered a bad thing by GGG and I agree. It causes a reduction in item fever and party communication about items. The current system doesn't really do anything for those who really don't like FFA loot. The addition of the short timers simply isn't good enough to them, and I am one of them.

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villain88 wrote:

I would suggest a purely free loot system for the cut-throat league

Yep.

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villain88 wrote:

and an individual loot system for everything else.

Nope. This is an extreme that needs to be avoided because it does not offer anything that the other camp (FFA lovers) enjoys. With the right system we can have competition over loot without feeling like we got robbed.

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villain88 wrote:

Weapons should have a higher chance of being allocated to the appropriate classes.

No. If I'm planning my next char to be a bow wielding ranger, but I am playing a melee marauder, I don't want my odds of finding a bow reduced.

The best solution I've come up with that I like is one that does not allocate loot right off the bat. Everything drops on the floor. Then, whoever clicks it first starts a timer (a thin time bar below the item) that lasts 5 seconds during which the other players can click on the item too, to join the dice roll. If you win it, the item goes to your inventory. Optionally, the odds for winning the dice roll can be influenced by your actions over the last 10 minutes, to encourage certain things.

To indicate which items you have cilcked on, a little red X is displayed next to the item if you didn't click the item yet but someone else did. A green V checkmark is displayed if you did click the item, so you know you are in the race for that one.

This system feels like you are competing very strongly because other players (and you) are actively marking items they will take if you don't click them too. This happens for every non white (or non white and non blue) item, which only increases that feel. Yet, there is a dice roll that determines who wins the item, so it never feels like you got robbed or done wrong by another player.

Ninjalooters would be happy because they still feel like they are competing over items. People who'd prefer their own private loot would be happy too because of the 5 second time window so they have all the time they need to click the items they want.

I explained it in more detail in my very long previous post.