Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.

"

Ninethousand wrote:

Another option:

10) Extended timer (set by party leader)
Possibility to set it to infinite ("Only for Me") or to 0 (FFA), with different timer choices in between. Every party can adjust to their optimal balance (a random party may tend more towards "Only for Me" as there's no trust background, meanwhile a party of close friends might decide for full FFA to speed up the gameplay).

Pros:
- Everyone gets the feeling they are looking for in their party.
- No need to stress about the loot or abandon combat... unless you are looking for that, then you can join a party accordingly.
- No gameplay delay with need/greed popups.

Cons:
- Might not be immediate to implement from the current state of the game.

I added your suggestion, and will continue to post this summary every few pages (like I previously did).

Note, I removed 2 points:
- No gameplay delay with need/greed popups
--- I do not see any delay, since the time you click on an item in FFA is the same as clicking on the popup.
--- If you need to think before deciding need/want, you also need to think before clicking on an item in FFA.

- Implementation time should be the least within other party setting suggestion.
--- Add another variable in party
--- Add the additional party setting to the existing timer. (I am thinking to keep the current timer of estimating the distance, then further add the customized variable into the item)

"

Roenie wrote:

Almost all public party creators would set it to Only for Me, or infinite timer, out of fear of losing item drops to other players.

I see the developer has this set to 5 to 10 seconds by default, and people would keep that settings.

I think adding 5 seconds is very enough.

"

Roenie wrote:

Almost all public party creators would set it to Only for Me, or infinite timer, out of fear of losing item drops to other players.

Not necessarily. There's people who enjoy the thrill of rushing for loot in the middle of combat in spite of its disadvantages. With pure "Only for Me" There's also the inconvenience of losing items you want that were assigned to other people who don't need them, unless they stop to pick them up and leave them on the ground again.

I think on public parties we would see a lot of 15-20s timers, some "Only for Me" and a lesser share of 1-10s timers and full FFA.

Where we stand today

GGG originally planned to make loot FFA because they felt it suited their design philosophy to get the atmosphere they wanted. Many fans have spoken up about wanting something less extreme. Some had valid concerns - problems for ranged characters and those with high latency. Other concerns such as "but I don't like it when someone else takes loot I wanted to have" appear to not be powerful enough to make GGG change their stance. Perhaps rightfully so because if opinions are what you cater to, you'd have to provide every possible option and there'd still be someone complaining about them. By going from 100% cutthroat that was FFA, to 75% cutthroat which is the timer system with short timers, GGG have solved the problems for ranged characters and players with high latency.

As you know, bars make everything better.

Current system's position (roughly):
Cutthroat [--x--------] Carebear

It caters more to cutthroats but not really to carebears.
Cutthroat means free for all, Carebear means no one but you gets to even see your drops.

My personal preference in aRPG's in general is this:
Cutthroat [-------x---] Carebear

...catering more to carebears but not to cutthroats.

This pleases no one:
Cutthroat [-----x-----] Carebear

If I were to suggest a solution that merely does what I like (somewhat carebear but not to the extreme), the carebears would be OK with the system and the cutthroats would feel left out. GGG would not implement it due to it having less of a cutthroat feel than the current system. (GGG are in the cutthroat category.) It wouldn't really get us anywhere.

A great solution does both:
Cutthroat [--x-----x--] Carebear

If this is done as a clever combination, it has the potential to make almost everyone happy,
because it has features that both camps really like. The trick is to enhance the loot cutthroatism through additional means. Or, to enhance the loot carebearism through additional means. I have an idea that does both. More on this later.

As long as it doesn't feel like this:
Cutthroat [x---------x] Carebear

...neither camp will be put off by the other camp's features enough to dislike the system as a whole, because they can't ignore the fact that there are things in it that they truly like.


My opinion of the current system

I like:
-How the loot allocation allows you to focus more on your drops, instead of on clicking as fast as you can on everything when that monster goes pop.
-How it softens the FFA a bit, avoiding the truly extreme that carebears would perceive as game breaking.
-That it solves the issues for ranged and lagged characters.

I dislike:
-How it doesn't really do anything for people who are loot carebears.
-The timers clutter up the UI a bit, they are somewhat large.
-The timers are hard to read because they are numbers rather than a visual clue.
-The timers are hard to read because they are numbers that are changing in realtime.
-I find the timers a little too short, I feel rushed and I often have to abanbon combat.
If I want a mouse aim and click twitch fest I'll launch first_person_online_shooter.exe. ;-)
-Players tend to not contribute to the party's progress, preferring to instead focus on standing next to another player's loot timer in hopes of that player arriving late. This can be remedied by making the timers last just a little bit longer (not too much) so there is more time to finish off a mob before you go grab the loot that dropped, reducing the odds that standing next to someone else's timer will pay off.
-Having to click on every item that you want to have, and the items originally not belonging to anyone, adds to the feeling of competition for that item. Drop allocation takes some of that away.

I'm a little surprised at the number of dislikes I was able to list there.


Suggested improvement to the current system (if you were to keep it)
-Make the timers run for a little bit longer. Not too much or you'd end up at the 50% point on the bar, that no one really enjoys, unless you compensate for it in other gameplay aspects.
-Make the timers smaller (but not TOO small because that limits the clickable area) by removing the player name from it. We don't need to know who the drop belongs to, just that it doesn't belong to us. For another option, check near the bottom of my post under the header "Participation window timer".
-I can't think of much else.


Taking a different approach

Instead of taking the current system as a starting point, I will suggest something else, taking into account what I said about a great system offering features for both instead of sitting somewhere in the middle between both camps.


Considerations

A driving force for the solution I will suggest is that I want there to be more incentive for public party members to work together. I also want parties to move around as a group, without fragmenting in different directions. (Without making sticking together the only possibility.)

Of course there's a number of ways to achieve that. One way is through the loot system.
Combine a bunch of criteria that show how much someone has contributed to the progress of his party over the last 10 minutes, express it as a number. Then use that number to adjust the relative drop allocation rate (the odds that an item is allocated to that player), and display that drop rate delta (+ or - n%) on the party window (or UI). It can be difficult to define the "bunch of criteria" without introducing something that can be abused in some way, but I'm not saying it can't be done. It will just be a challenge.

Another, perhaps easier way is to add a certain property to the party leader, that would add the incentive (but not an absolutely necessity) to follow him instead of going your own way. He's called the leader for a reason, right? Right? O_o


Cutthroats & Carebears Loot Drop System (you heard it from me first, heheh)

In short:
A dice roll system that has a somewhat lenient but limited time window to participate by marking the item on the ground, the outcome of the roll is influenced by the prior actions of each individual player. Those actions could be anything you want to incentivise, but here I feel we should focus on enhancing both the cutthroat feel with them (the feeling of competition between players) as well as party teamplay.

I want to combine a relatively carebear feel with the feeling of competition.

In detail:
No initial, automatic drop allocation, because I want the player to see all the drops, compete for them, know that he is competing for them, and to work for them. The non-white item initially drops without a timer, just like white items do. White and blue items can be picked up immediately, higher rarity items cannot. Anyone can click the higher rarity item to indicate that they want it. The item is not picked up immediately when clicked on. Instead, the item is marked. In front of its name it gets a small circle (gold outline and black fill) with a green "V" checkmark inside it. The circle is no taller than the item name itself. If someone other than you clicked the item, the checkmark is a red "X" instead. The X indicates that in 5 seconds a dice roll will be performed to dertermine who gets the item. The dice roll can optionally be influenced by your previous actions. (More about that later.) Now you have 5 seconds to click the item too, to join in the dice roll before it ends, turning the "X" into a "V" checkmark. After the 5 second period, the item is automatically added to the winner's inventory. Of course we need a decent indicator of the 5 second period. (The "participation window".) More about this further below.

Competition feel to it
Having to click on every item that you want to have, and the items originally not belonging to anyone, adds to the feeling of competition for that item. Especially if that item was first clicked by someone else, and that fact is visible to you on the actual item as a red X. Meaning you have to get over there and click it too, to participate in the dice roll. Cutthroats will like the competitive feel of this.

Because I don't want everyone to click every item right now, there is a 5 second time window to do so. Carebears will like that idea.

Influencing the dice roll, enhancing competition and teamplay simultaneously
I won't beat around the bush: this is the most difficult part to implement, but it's very powerful. Because we have a dice roll, we can influence its outcome based on player action. That could be anything you want to encourage or discourage. I would suggest using a set of criteria that cleverly and relatively precisely estimate how much a player was contributing to the progression of the party over the last 10 minutes. Divide by 10 to get a figure per minute. Compare that figure to the average figure for the entire party. Use the difference to determine a +% bonus to the chances of winning the dice roll. The "bonus" can also be negative. While this may seem
like a very carebearish thing to do... let's display the number on the UI when in a party, or on the party screen. Suddenly you have people competing with each other to contribute the most to the party's overall progression. (Note: when your odds of winning increase, the other players odds naturally go down, because the total win chance of all partymembers combined is always 100%.)

Of course i have a few ideas about the set of criteria for this, but I feel going into detail about them at this stage, without knowing what the response to this post will be like, would be a bit premature.

Participation window timer
Of course we need a decent indicator of the 5 second time period that I mentioned easlier, and that I called the "participation window". We need a good indicator of this because if an item is on its last second of its participation window, you don't want to walk over to it if you are 2 seconds away. The player needs to be aware how much time is remaining.

The way that timers are displayed with the current loot system could be used for this, with a few modifications;

As mentioned,
-The timers clutter up the UI a bit.
-The timers are hard to read because they are numbers rather than a visual clue.
-The timers are hard to read because they are numbers that are changing in realtime.

Therefore:
-Let's use a visual indicator instead of a numerical one, because they are quicker to judge.
That is why monsters in some games have health bars hovering above them, not numbers alone.
-Let's make them a bit smaller (less UI clutter).

I suggest adding a very thin "time bar" below the item name, comprised of 5 horizontal sections, one for each second. It should of course not be green or red in colour, because it comes natural to players to interpret those colours as health bars (when shaped like a bar). I suggest making use of the colour gold. This solution takes up less UI space than a number timer, and it's easier to quickly interpret. A bar is less accurate, which can be a good thing. When just one bar section remains you don't know if that's a full second, half a second, or one fifth of a second. But you can try to click the item anyway, knowing full well that you may not get there in time. If you don't get it, your response would be something along the lines of: "Noooo, I really wanted that rare ring." (Which translates to: I really want to find another one.) If you did get to the item on time, your response would be something like: "Yes! Woohoo, just in time!". I like both those responses, but I like the one where you didn't get to the item in time better than the reaction you'd get from not getting to it while you were shown exactly how many 10ths of a second remained. In that case it would feel like your own stupid fault if you still clicked the item and didn't get there in time.

Plenty here for you to think about, eh. ;-)
Some or even all of what I say may be critisized and scrutinized and that's OK. That's how people come up with great solutions collectively. If you can improve on my post, awesome. If you're going to state a problem, please make an effort to suggest a solution too.

As I said on the other topic of looting why not just make every drop have a 3-5 second timer and be done with random choosing of who gets the item.

Not in beta yet so I don't know the full extent of the problem. Plus haven't read the whole thread so this idea may have been stated.

The idea is using distance to determine when you can pick up the loot and some sort of traffic light system.

For example every individual has this distance parameter.

When there are monsters within the parameter, looting is banned. Users will be notified by a symbol that indicates looting is banned. A suggestion of this symbol is a loot icon with a cross over it. (red light)

When there are no monsters within the parameter, the symbol changes so it flashes stating that there may be a chance for the loot to be picked up. (yellow light)

When x seconds are completed and there is no monsters within the distance parameter of each individual, loot will become available to pick up. Loot symbol changes (green light)

During the green light phase, time limit can be introduced to ensure certain rares are not picked up by others for x seconds. Besides that everything is FFA.



Again I like to state I haven't played the game yet so this idea may be rusty. Feel free to come down on my idea like a hammer =).

"

Roenie wrote:

Where we stand today

GGG originally planned to make loot FFA because they felt it suited their design philosophy to get the atmosphere they wanted. Many fans have spoken up about wanting something less extreme. Some had valid concerns - problems for ranged characters and those with high latency. Other concerns such as "but I don't like it when someone else takes loot I wanted to have" appear to not be powerful enough to make GGG change their stance. Perhaps rightfully so because if opinions are what you cater to, you'd have to provide every possible option and there'd still be someone complaining about them. By going from 100% cutthroat that was FFA, to 75% cutthroat which is the timer system with short timers, GGG have solved the problems for ranged characters and players with high latency.

As you know, bars make everything better.

Current system's position (roughly):
Cutthroat [--x--------] Carebear

It caters more to cutthroats but not really to carebears.
Cutthroat means free for all, Carebear means no one but you gets to even see your drops.

My personal preference in aRPG's in general is this:
Cutthroat [-------x---] Carebear

...catering more to carebears but not to cutthroats.

This pleases no one:
Cutthroat [-----x-----] Carebear

If I were to suggest a solution that merely does what I like (somewhat carebear but not to the extreme), the carebears would be OK with the system and the cutthroats would feel left out. GGG would not implement it due to it having less of a cutthroat feel than the current system. (GGG are in the cutthroat category.) It wouldn't really get us anywhere.

A great solution does both:
Cutthroat [--x-----x--] Carebear

If this is done as a clever combination, it has the potential to make almost everyone happy,
because it has features that both camps really like. The trick is to enhance the loot cutthroatism through additional means. Or, to enhance the loot carebearism through additional means. I have an idea that does both. More on this later.

As long as it doesn't feel like this:
Cutthroat [x---------x] Carebear

...neither camp will be put off by the other camp's features enough to dislike the system as a whole, because they can't ignore the fact that there are things in it that they truly like.


My opinion of the current system

I like:
-How the loot allocation allows you to focus more on your drops, instead of on clicking as fast as you can on everything when that monster goes pop.
-How it softens the FFA a bit, avoiding the truly extreme that carebears would perceive as game breaking.
-That it solves the issues for ranged and lagged characters.

I dislike:
-How it doesn't really do anything for people who are loot carebears.
-The timers clutter up the UI a bit, they are somewhat large.
-The timers are hard to read because they are numbers rather than a visual clue.
-The timers are hard to read because they are numbers that are changing in realtime.
-I find the timers a little too short, I feel rushed and I often have to abanbon combat.
If I want a mouse aim and click twitch fest I'll launch first_person_online_shooter.exe. ;-)
-Players tend to not contribute to the party's progress, preferring to instead focus on standing next to another player's loot timer in hopes of that player arriving late. This can be remedied by making the timers last just a little bit longer (not too much) so there is more time to finish off a mob before you go grab the loot that dropped, reducing the odds that standing next to someone else's timer will pay off.
-Having to click on every item that you want to have, and the items originally not belonging to anyone, adds to the feeling of competition for that item. Drop allocation takes some of that away.

I'm a little surprised at the number of dislikes I was able to list there.


Suggested improvement to the current system (if you were to keep it)
-Make the timers run for a little bit longer. Not too much or you'd end up at the 50% point on the bar, that no one really enjoys, unless you compensate for it in other gameplay aspects.
-Make the timers smaller (but not TOO small because that limits the clickable area) by removing the player name from it. We don't need to know who the drop belongs to, just that it doesn't belong to us. For another option, check near the bottom of my post under the header "Participation window timer".
-I can't think of much else.


Taking a different approach

Instead of taking the current system as a starting point, I will suggest something else, taking into account what I said about a great system offering features for both instead of sitting somewhere in the middle between both camps.


Considerations

A driving force for the solution I will suggest is that I want there to be more incentive for public party members to work together. I also want parties to move around as a group, without fragmenting in different directions. (Without making sticking together the only possibility.)

Of course there's a number of ways to achieve that. One way is through the loot system.
Combine a bunch of criteria that show how much someone has contributed to the progress of his party over the last 10 minutes, express it as a number. Then use that number to adjust the relative drop allocation rate (the odds that an item is allocated to that player), and display that drop rate delta (+ or - n%) on the party window (or UI). It can be difficult to define the "bunch of criteria" without introducing something that can be abused in some way, but I'm not saying it can't be done. It will just be a challenge.

Another, perhaps easier way is to add a certain property to the party leader, that would add the incentive (but not an absolutely necessity) to follow him instead of going your own way. He's called the leader for a reason, right? Right? O_o


Cutthroats & Carebears Loot Drop System (you heard it from me first, heheh)

In short:
A dice roll system that has a somewhat lenient but limited time window to participate, the outcome of which is influenced by the actions of the individual player himself. Those actions could be anything you want to incentivise, but here I feel we should focus on enhancing both the cutthroat feel with them (the feeling of competition between players) as well as party teamplay.

I want to combine a relatively carebear feel with the feeling of competition.

In detail:
No initial, automatic drop allocation, because I want the player to see all the drops, compete for them, know that he is competing for them, and to work for them. The non-white item initially drops without a timer, just like white items do. White and blue items can be picked up immediately, higher rarity items cannot. Anyone can click the higher rarity item to indicate that they want it. The item is not picked up immediately when clicked on. Instead, the item is marked. In front of its name it gets a small circle (gold outline and black fill) with a green "V" checkmark inside it. The circle is no taller than the item name itself. If someone other than you clicked the item, the checkmark is a red "X" instead. The X indicates that in 5 seconds a dice roll will be performed to dertermine who gets the item. The dice roll can optionally be influenced by your previous actions. (More about that later.) Now you have 5 seconds to click the item too, to join in the dice roll before it ends, turning the "X" into a "V" checkmark. After the 5 second period, the item is automatically added to the winner's inventory. Of course we need a decent indicator of the 5 second period. (The "participation window".) More about this further below.

Competition feel to it
Having to click on every item that you want to have, and the items originally not belonging to anyone, adds to the feeling of competition for that item. Especially if that item was first clicked by someone else, and that fact is visible to you on the actual item as a red X. Meaning you have to get over there and click it too, to participate in the dice roll. Cutthroats will like the competitive feel of this.

Because I don't want everyone to click every item right now, there is a 5 second time window to do so. Carebears will like that idea.

Influencing the dice roll, enhancing competition and teamplay simultaneously
I won't beat around the bush: this is the most difficult part to implement, but it's very powerful. Because we have a dice roll, we can influence its outcome based on player action. That could be anything you want to encourage or discourage. I would suggest using a set of criteria that cleverly and relatively precisely estimate how much a player was contributing to the progression of the party over the last 10 minutes. Divide by 10 to get a figure per minute. Compare that figure to the average figure for the entire party. Use the difference to determine a +% bonus to the chances of winning the dice roll. The "bonus" can also be negative. While this may seem
like a very carebearish thing to do... let's display the number on the UI when in a party, or on the party screen. Suddenly you have people competing with each other to contribute the most to the party's overall progression. (Note: when your odds of winning increase, the other players odds naturally go down, because the total win chance of all partymembers combined is always 100%.)

Of course i have a few ideas about the set of criteria for this, but I feel going into detail about them at this stage, without knowing what the response to this post will be like, would be a bit premature.

Participation window timer
Of course we need a decent indicator of the 5 second time period that I mentioned easlier, and that I called the "participation window". We need a good indicator of this because if an item is on its last second of its participation window, you don't want to walk over to it if you are 2 seconds away. The player needs to be aware how much time is remaining.

The way that timers are displayed with the current loot system could be used for this, with a few modifications;

As mentioned,
-The timers clutter up the UI a bit.
-The timers are hard to read because they are numbers rather than a visual clue.
-The timers are hard to read because they are numbers that are changing in realtime.

Therefore:
-Let's use a visual indicator instead of a numerical one, because they are quicker to judge.
That is why monsters in some games have health bars hovering above them, not numbers alone.
-Let's make them a bit smaller (less UI clutter).

I suggest adding a very thin "time bar" below the item name, comprised of 5 horizontal sections, one for each second. It should of course not be green or red in colour, because it comes natural to players to interpret those colours as health bars (when shaped like a bar). I suggest making use of the colour gold. This solution takes up less UI space than a number timer, and it's easier to quickly interpret. A bar is less accurate, which can be a good thing. When just one bar section remains you don't know if that's a full second, half a second, or one fifth of a second. But you can try to click the item anyway, knowing full well that you may not get there in time. If you don't get it, your response would be something along the lines of: "Noooo, I really wanted that rare ring." (Which translates to: I really want to find another one.) If you did get to the item on time, your response would be something like: "Yes! Woohoo, just in time!". I like both those responses, but I like the one where you didn't get to the item in time better than the reaction you'd get from not getting to it while you were shown exactly how many 10ths of a second remained. In that case it would feel like your own stupid fault if you still clicked the item and didn't get there in time.

Plenty here for you to think about, eh. ;-)
Some or even all of what I say may be critisized and scrutinized and that's OK. That's how people come up with great solutions collectively. If you can improve on my post, awesome. If you're going to state a problem, please make an effort to suggest a solution too.

Good write up. I don't know if you have few words to summarize this.

Want to add, currency item should either be loot automatically, or it is for you only.

"

TheKnigget wrote:

Not in beta yet so I don't know the full extent of the problem. Plus haven't read the whole thread so this idea may have been stated.

The idea is using distance to determine when you can pick up the loot and some sort of traffic light system.

For example every individual has this distance parameter.

When there are monsters within the parameter, looting is banned. Users will be notified by a symbol that indicates looting is banned. A suggestion of this symbol is a loot icon with a cross over it. (red light)

When there are no monsters within the parameter, the symbol changes so it flashes stating that there may be a chance for the loot to be picked up. (yellow light)

When x seconds are completed and there is no monsters within the distance parameter of each individual, loot will become available to pick up. Loot symbol changes (green light)

During the green light phase, time limit can be introduced to ensure certain rares are not picked up by others for x seconds. Besides that everything is FFA.



Again I like to state I haven't played the game yet so this idea may be rusty. Feel free to come down on my idea like a hammer =).

This is exactly what it is right now, but the timer seems to be too short for the owner to pick it up, and too long for other people just stand there for a second or two without co-operating in party.

"

iamstryker wrote:

Diablo 3 was instanced and felt very fast paced to me.

D3 was not fast-paced at all... and why on Earth were you grouping with others in D3, anyways? ;)

"

MetavoidX wrote:

I hope GGG find solution to this as currently I never play public multiplayer anymore - after I had a Portal Gem stolen.

How was it stolen? It's not yours until you pick it up! :D

"

MetavoidX wrote:

The current timers are too fast for me. Being ranger I stand on egde of screen.

I group with a particular Ranger all the time, and he doesn't stand at the edge of the screen. We race for the same loot all the time (him being ranged, I being melee).

i find it weird that people act like they're "losing" items or that they're "stolen" when they are randomly assigned. who says it's fair that you get the item? there's nothing keeping track of who has gotten what, assigning things at a fair rate. in a game where many items are basically worthless but on rare occasion, something extremely valuable drops, there is no really fair way to systematically distribute loot. when that exalted orb drops, it's almost definitely going to be the only one that will drop for your public party. why is it fair that one person has exclusive rights to it? it isn't.

the thing that does need to be solved, however, is the fact that ranged classes don't have as good of a chance to get loot as melee. there is a solution to this that actually makes sense within the context of the game world. it doesn't actually make sense that a monster would drop all his loot in a neat little pile at the base of his feet after he gets his face rearranged by your 2-handed mace. so, what if drops are placed at a random location in a radius around the monster? it'd be like you beat it out of him and it went flying. and this way, ranged classes would have a random chance of being closer to the item than melee. to me, that's a better solution than timers, because people won't feel like they are having items "stolen" from them, which is a fallacy anyway, and also when an extremely valuable item drops, you'll still have a chance of getting it, instead of it being assigned to a player arbitrarily.