Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.
" Oh, I don't know. Because it's fun? And because it actually increases your chance of getting good loot and experience in the majority of cases? " "Outdated" is a useless accusation. At least provide more specific critiques on what about it you dislike. Also, iamstryker, Aixius: both of you cool it with the ad hominem. I'll grant that this topic does tend to run heated, but that excuse only goes so far - and it doesn't help your cases any when you do it. I have wandered through insanity;
I have walked the spiral out. Heard its twisted dreamed inanity In a whisper, in a shout. In the babbling cacophony The refrains are all the same: "[permutations of humanity] are unworthy of the name!" |
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" " But anyway, it was nice for you to disregard the entire comment, which was: I think any true exile - someone who started with nothing - would make a dash for any significant item that could help them in their adventuring. How's that for flavor? And the devs are even giving you a visual cue along with a reserved frame of time to go get it? That is more than fair in an unfair world. I don't think that sounds ridiculous, I think it fits the theme of the game - which is important to me. |
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" Firstly, I would like to address your statement regarding the point of playing in a public game. According to you, the point of it is not to be able to build better character playability through the gathering of loot(which is valuable to any player who wishes to have good gear to play with), but to be able to play with others, because(in your opinion) "it's fun". While I agree that playing with multiple players in general is "fun", fighting over loot, or rushing to obtain loot before others, while also trying to continue destroying mobs, makes the game far less fun. The only way to effectively retrieve the fallen loot that you would like to obtain would be to build a character that is completely tank, so that you could be hit with anything and not die, and spend the entire time picking up loot, instead of fighting the mobs. As this in itself is not fun, and the other players that would be missing out on that same loot would not think that it would be fun either, I urge you to once again look at the first statement that I made in the previous post. How does playing in a public game INCREASE the chance of getting good loot? Many other players in this thread state otherwise, so I would like to know your proof of this supposed fact. Regarding your statement about "outdated" being a useless accusation: this type of FFA loot system was originally created in a time that few people actually played these types of games, and those that did want to play played what was available at the time. At that time, one of the chief complaints of the game was of the FFA loot system in public games. This FACT can be verified, if you take the time to Google it. Or, if you are indeed old enough to remember the times of D2, just think back to that time and you should be able to recall the complaints. Last edited by Killurself#3025 on Jul 19, 2012, 1:06:47 PM
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I guess the threads on the loot discussion have well established that some people like the FFA idea a lot, and some people dislike it a lot.
But it is GGG's decision, I respect that, and time will tell. Although I have to wonder if the forum will be full of complaints about it after live. It might be a good idea to have a sticky at the top of General in caps and bold letters telling players FFA is part of the game philosophy (the whole "in Exile" thing). Tell them in so many words it is not going to change, like it or do not PuG. I know I won't be pugging with the current loot system. I have played FFA looting games, and there are just too many asshats in the general gaming community when it comes to sharing loot. So the middle of every fight I stop fighting to run for loot before the timer expires and it is ninjaed?. lol, just no, ludicrous to me. When I get bored with the PVE game solo, I will PVP or move on. Last edited by Yankee#6370 on Jul 19, 2012, 6:10:02 PM
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" Simple: more items drop in total in party games than solo.
Mechanics
There are four factors at work here. First off, is that having additional players in the area does not scale monster health by 100%, but rather a lesser percentage - 50% per player, I believe. So for two players with comparable damage output, they will be killing monsters at (100% + 100%) / 150% = 133% the rate of a solo player. A party of six, for comparison, will be killing at roughly 171% the rate of a solo player.
Second, monsters also drop more loot per-kill in a party than while solo - essentially, it scales at the same rate their health does: a party of two will be getting 150% of the loot per monster that a solo player would, and so on up to 350% for six players. You'll note that this divides out to exactly the same loot per player, per unit time (not per-monster), total: 350% * 171% = 6, and 150% * 133% = 2. However, this is where points 3 and 4 come in: Players do not all have the same build. Therefore, they are not all looking for the same loot. Suppose a solo player can make use of 10% of the loot that they find. There's no reason to think that this percentage will change in a party, so they're still looking at 10% of the loot and ignoring the rest. The difference here is that - as established in the previous two points - you have X times as much loot to look at. If both players in a two-person party are looking for exactly the same items, they're neither at an advantage nor a disadvantage compared to soloing: the 10% of items they're looking at are split evenly, but there are twice as many total. The better player will probably end up with the better gear, but as soon as that starts happening their standards will change (the player with better gear gets pickier), and so the other will have more to choose from as time goes on. If the players are looking for different gear, however, then the equation shifts decisively in favor of partying for loot instead of soloing: the "10%"s no longer overlap, leading to X times the desirable loot in an X-person party for each person in it. By this measure, if you're in it for the loot, a six-person party is the way to go. Fourth, and subtlest: limited inventory space. Greed backfires in the long run, because taking what you don't actually need ensures that you will be at a disadvantage when something comes along that you do need. I have wandered through insanity;
I have walked the spiral out. Heard its twisted dreamed inanity In a whisper, in a shout. In the babbling cacophony The refrains are all the same: "[permutations of humanity] are unworthy of the name!" |
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" That is precisely why I don't have a problem with FFA loot (thank you for posting that). People seem to think that the same amount of stuff will drop and they'll miss out somehow...when in reality: - more loot will drop per monster - monsters will die faster - monsters will have more targets with more players in the game, meaning you won't have to fend off everything on screen if you try to grab an item while fighting - inventory space is limited - there is a timer on the rarer items There are tons of reasons why partying up is advantageous. What seems to be the problem is that many players just can't handle someone else nabbing an item before them. And hey, if someone does grab an item you need first, you can always just ask them for it. Player interaction is a big part of what makes these online ARPGs interesting for me. |
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" Easy to explain what I said. When I wrote that I never called one of your arguments dumb I meant it. I don't have a problem with why you like the FFA system. I did not however like when you wrote a COMMENT so inaccurate that it looked straight up dumb. I honestly don't think your dumb, we just have a differnce of opinion. If it helps move the coversation forward I apologize for using the word dumb Dude you have left so many things that I have pointed out unanswered that I have lost count but at any rate what you wrote about "any true exile" is something I have already responded to plenty. Your still talking about the Setting and Feel of the game which people like me don't give a crap about. The devs reserved time does nothing for people who do not want to compete for loot so that doesn't matter. The whole FFA loot system is designed to NOT be fair but cater to the people darting at loot the fastest so why are we talking about whats fair? What would be fair is a seperate system for people who do not want a PVP mini game. Standard Forever
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" Not arguing against people who find it fun, more power to ya. My argument is simply that tons of players do not want to play it and do not even like the idea of competeing for loot. Getting more good loot in this system is debatable but in this case really doesn't matter because regardless people still do not want to compete for loot. There honestly probably is not much more to say that has not already been said in the thread. My only question to other players and the devs is why does this system have to be exclusive to all players when the the majority (arguably) would rather play a different system? Standard Forever Last edited by iamstryker#5952 on Jul 19, 2012, 3:18:04 PM
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" It isn't my job to invalidate every argument you make against the FFA loot system; this is why I haven't been making post after post calling your opinions ridiculous just because they don't match my own. I understand that you don't want any competition for loot whatsoever (and thus, want an option for that). I think that some level of competition is integral to the game, so I don't think there should be an option for that (at least in the default leagues). So with that in mind, we clearly have different ideas of what "fairness" actually is. I think Opportunity should be a big part of gameplay, so to me "fair" is giving each player a shot at any item that drops. I think that the reserve timer system is a nice way of giving players a chance to grab a portion of the loot even if they aren't right next to it when it drops. I think removing FFA loot removes a human behavioral element that is needed in these games. But you appear to be saying that the concept of FFA loot can never be fair because it is inherently flawed...so there's really no reason for me to refute every argument you make. |
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" Awesome. This is a great place for the two of us to stop. I don't really think the system is flawed. Just not fair because its not supposed to be fair. You and I have exhausted our postions so we should quit this. Thanks for educating me on what FFA players like about it. Standard Forever
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