Jun/betrayal mechanic feedback and suggestions

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jsuslak313 wrote:

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demon7310 wrote:

the whole point is to make money out of it like any other mechanic in the game.

No...that is the whole point for YOU to do Jun, and for YOU to do any other mechanic in the game.

That is most certainly NOT "the whole point" of the mechanic itself, or any other mechanic. This game is not a market simulator.

The actual "whole point" of ANY mechanic in this game, is to have the opportunity to improve your character or improve other game mechanics. Running something for the sole purpose of selling it is a secondary outcome brought about by someone who has gotten bored with the game.

That's up for debate, when you've played the game for a long time at some point you start looking for good ways to make money and optimise towards it

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demon7310 wrote:

That's up for debate, when you've played the game for a long time at some point you start looking for good ways to make money and optimise towards it

I've played a LOT longer than you, my friend....sure, you want to optimize your gameplay and make currency faster. But that is SECONDARY to the "whole point" of building characters and getting stronger.

Making "currency" in this game is completely and utterly pointless if you aren't USING that currency to improve your characters and make them stronger. What's the point? To fill your currency stash tab?

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Lonnie455Rich wrote:

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demon7310 wrote:

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Lonnie455Rich wrote:

Leadership matters for leo in intervention to drop paradoxica.

Idk about anything else.

Are you sure about that? I've dropped probably 15 paradoxicas this league, why would leo make it better odds? His reward is ultimatum scarabs in intervention iirc.

When leo is the leader of intervention and rank 3 and you do a safehouse he can drop paradoxica when you interrogate him. ive never had one drop from anyone else or any other situation.

From my experience I feel like the paradoxica drop is random, somewhere between 5/10% chance when you do intervention. I'm pretty sure it's not tied to leo at all.

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exsea wrote:

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demon7310 wrote:

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exsea wrote:

my suggestions:
4. all syndicate options STOP when mastermind is at 100%. but mastermind encounter is itemized like incursion temples.

and my unpopular opinion:

make mastermind intelligence ALWAYS increase slowly. if this is not done players will simply abuse the syndicate repeatedly, for example scarab farming.

I think these 2 suggestions combined are really bad, you often get mastermind to 100 before all the members are ready.
If you just force the player to run mastermind when he doesn't wants to thats really bad.

previously GGG seemed to not like players intentionally "not completing" the mastermind and intentionally avoiding the mastermind even with full intelligence.

which is why i say that one of them is an unpopular opinion/suggestion

also you have to consider the other suggestions i gave which make it easier to setup the board faster.

setup fast, knock down fast. no cheesing. bad rng? too bad. it will function like alva temples where you're forced to complete whether you like it or not. but with the huge caveat that my suggestion on making ways to setup the board much more easier needs to happen as well or else its really not satisfying as you cant even setup the board as you mentioned.

Yeah I see what you mean but not a big fan of the forced to open thing as we already have that with alva.
I like being able to control members, when I open safehouses.
The mechanic must have randomness in the encounters and options offered but I think there should also be more deterministic factors so you can also control and expect certain behaviors in the mechanic to be able to plan ahead.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

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demon7310 wrote:

That's up for debate, when you've played the game for a long time at some point you start looking for good ways to make money and optimise towards it

I've played a LOT longer than you, my friend....sure, you want to optimize your gameplay and make currency faster. But that is SECONDARY to the "whole point" of building characters and getting stronger.

Making "currency" in this game is completely and utterly pointless if you aren't USING that currency to improve your characters and make them stronger. What's the point? To fill your currency stash tab?

I don't get your point, I am also using the currency to spend it and I never said the contrary. I'm a min maxer so I do that alot.
I think we're deviating from the topic, I just wanna make jun feel better to play whether you do it for money or not.

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demon7310 wrote:

I don't get your point, I am also using the currency to spend it and I never said the contrary. I'm a min maxer so I do that alot.
I think we're deviating from the topic, I just wanna make jun feel better to play whether you do it for money or not.

We are not deviating from your main point. It is crucial, because the REASON for all your complaints are the WAY you play Jun. And your reason, with your own words, is that the whole point of running Betrayal at all is to sell Aisling/Vorici/Hillock. Not "use" betrayal, but "sell" betrayal. Your only interest in it is....making money.

Your complaints exist because YOU decided that is the only way and the only reason to run Jun. What I am saying is that is not at all true, and if you wanted to "fix" almost every issue you listed....the "fixes" exist, and actually have existed long before t4 was even a thing! You just don't want to do them because your entire goal is to sell these 3 limiting things as fast as possible.

What happens when, next league, they gut abyss and folks start complaining because "the whole point" of running abyss was getting game-crashing amounts of fractured items and divines? No......the actual whole point of running abyss was getting abyss jewels and stygian vises, and abyss uniques. The "profit" is a secondary byproduct and should NEVER be the design focus of the mechanic itself. Profit is defined by many other external factors, but the mechanic itself is defined by what it DOES and whether or not its fun to do.

Jun is FUN to set up. Jun is FUN to puzzle out how to get the most out of your game board. Jun has a LOT to offer a player....once you get rid of the "oh i need to make the absolute max div per hour" mentality that you have surrounding it.

You want to try and "game" the system to make the most profit? You need to be ready to accept that some things may not go your way (hence, all your complaints). But you should ALSO be aware that your complaints are for non-existent problems that have been created by the way YOU personally chose to interact with it. And that is why I am here in this thread.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

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demon7310 wrote:

I don't get your point, I am also using the currency to spend it and I never said the contrary. I'm a min maxer so I do that alot.
I think we're deviating from the topic, I just wanna make jun feel better to play whether you do it for money or not.

We are not deviating from your main point. It is crucial, because the REASON for all your complaints are the WAY you play Jun. And your reason, with your own words, is that the whole point of running Betrayal at all is to sell Aisling/Vorici/Hillock. Not "use" betrayal, but "sell" betrayal. Your only interest in it is....making money.

Your complaints exist because YOU decided that is the only way and the only reason to run Jun. What I am saying is that is not at all true, and if you wanted to "fix" almost every issue you listed....the "fixes" exist, and actually have existed long before t4 was even a thing! You just don't want to do them because your entire goal is to sell these 3 limiting things as fast as possible.

What happens when, next league, they gut abyss and folks start complaining because "the whole point" of running abyss was getting game-crashing amounts of fractured items and divines? No......the actual whole point of running abyss was getting abyss jewels and stygian vises, and abyss uniques. The "profit" is a secondary byproduct and should NEVER be the design focus of the mechanic itself. Profit is defined by many other external factors, but the mechanic itself is defined by what it DOES and whether or not its fun to do.

Jun is FUN to set up. Jun is FUN to puzzle out how to get the most out of your game board. Jun has a LOT to offer a player....once you get rid of the "oh i need to make the absolute max div per hour" mentality that you have surrounding it.

You want to try and "game" the system to make the most profit? You need to be ready to accept that some things may not go your way (hence, all your complaints). But you should ALSO be aware that your complaints are for non-existent problems that have been created by the way YOU personally chose to interact with it. And that is why I am here in this thread.

Yes maybe you're right, would need the opinion of other people too.
But I think some of my points are still relevant even if you don't try to min max for money either.
As exsea said, jun encounters should always be meaningful. Having members spawn alone doesn't have much interesting to offer and could maybe be improved. And I think my idea of transportation and fortification alternating is also pretty good.

And for abyss its a different case. Abyss is only insane this league due to affliction, before it has always been about abyss jewels and the boss uniques.
The point of doing jun has been about farming aisling hillock vorici for a couple years now. The safehouse and boss uniques drop no matter what anyway.
It is an important piece of the crafting ecosystem.

From my experience I feel like the paradoxica drop is random, somewhere between 5/10% chance when you do intervention. I'm pretty sure it's not tied to leo at all.[/quote]

POE wiki says its any leader in intervention. I've only ever had leo drop it though. I've farmed betrayal every league since 3.15. Could be a small sample size of dumb luck. Has been my experience though.

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demon7310 wrote:

And for abyss its a different case. Abyss is only insane this league due to affliction, before it has always been about abyss jewels and the boss uniques.
The point of doing jun has been about farming aisling hillock vorici for a couple years now. The safehouse and boss uniques drop no matter what anyway.
It is an important piece of the crafting ecosystem.

Doesn't matter WHY abyss is insane, what matters is precisely the same reason why you have a problem with Jun. People see profit, then they don't, or they want more efficient profit. It's all the same problem in different skins. Players get to a point where they totally ignore the mechanic itself and only see $$$ in their eyes...

"The point of doing Jun has been about farming aisling/hillock/vorici for a couple years now": again....YOUR reason for doing Jun has been this, but that simply isn't true. Are they some of the best possible rewards you can get, ABSOLUTELY. But they are not the "point" of Jun. Collecting scarabs of any type, unlocking crafts, breachstones, Tora, even Guff, ALL have value to players. They just aren't valuable to YOU and YOUR strategy. Grabbing a fractured base and chaos spamming or essence spamming via guff can be CRAZY GOOD. It just takes longer than other things, so the min/maxers completely ignore it as "useless". Breachstones, to the player that does NOT buy 5-way carries, are still a hugely valuable source of bubblegum currency, maps, and huge amounts of exp. Not to mention the CHANCE at pretty good and valuable uniques.


Do I agree that all Jun encounters should be meaningful: yes. MAYBE an idea that makes it so 2 people always spawn by default would do this. I think this wouldn't do anything for people already complaining about Jun, and would change nothing. And also, from my experience, if you are tree specced into Jun then you almost NEVER see a single member by themself anyway. I personally think the "fun" in Jun is slowly building your board to your liking. It doesn't appeal to everyone and thats fine, but its one of the few mechanics that isnt just "kill everything as fast as possible for instant gratification" and thats a GOOD thing.

And for the record: are there problems with Jun? Absolutely!!! Certain rewards and members are way way way out of date and need updating. I just don't believe anything you posted are legitimate problems with Jun, because many of them don't actually exist. I do agree with you that leadership needs to be reworked. An easy fix I think is that leaders should be able to offer t4 rewards in a safehouse. No more double reward unless you run the mastermind, but still access to the t4.

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Lonnie455Rich wrote:

From my experience I feel like the paradoxica drop is random, somewhere between 5/10% chance when you do intervention. I'm pretty sure it's not tied to leo at all.

POE wiki says its any leader in intervention. I've only ever had leo drop it though. I've farmed betrayal every league since 3.15. Could be a small sample size of dumb luck. Has been my experience though.[/quote]

I'll keep that in mind, try to get leo leader and see what I get.