The Self Found League

Also, keep in mind that most self-found players, particularly those that solo, are barely even noticed at all in the current leagues. So moving them to separate leagues will do next to nothing in terms of population in existing leagues.

Luchies,

Please let me start by saying how much I appreciate you expressing your concerns over this proposal in a manner that fosters discussion as opposed to argument. I'm personally guilty of failing miserably in that regard, but it's something I think we could use more of around here and I'm trying to make an effort to do better at it.

As for your specific concern about the population of hardcore, I think it's one that would prove unfounded. If we look at the trading population in either of the existing leagues as they stand right now, I believe we can safely assume that the vast majority of those participating in the trade system are doing so because they actually want to. Most of us who dislike trading, I believe, avoid it already in those leagues. While it may be true that some who prefer not to trade do so because they feel it's the only way to progress, I think these people sit squarely in the minority. I don't believe that removing these players to a no trade league (more accurately, allowing them to move themselves) would have a noticeable impact on the population of the existing default and hardcore leagues.

To your second point, it is certainly true that one can play self found in default and HC now. The difficulty for me, personally, and the thing I would like to see changed is the rate at which one can acquire the necessary currency for a viable system of crafting the gear you need as opposed to trading for it. While I'm actually fine with the random nature of crafting in this game, the lack of predictable results from any given crafting attempt means that it is generally far more favorable to someone looking for a particular item or mod to engage in the trade system as opposed to the crafting system. I'm not a fan of this. The only way I see to combat this without impacting the RNG that GGG seems to clearly want in crafting, is to increase currency drops to the point that crafting can serve as a viable alternative to trading (not that I dislike your Schematic proposal, Courageous. It's just that it's not the RNG I have issue with so much as the restricted number of attempts). This, however, would have a hugely negative impact on the trade environments in default and hardcore, hence my support of a new league. If I believed that a middle ground that made crafting equally as viable as trading could be found without damaging the trade system for those who enjoy it, I would be perfectly happy to remain in default for the duration of my time with PoE. Unfortunately, though, I have yet to see an idea that blends the two together in what I believe to be a workable way.

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luchies wrote:

Hey lads,

I've read about 5-6 pages and now I have some thoughts about this Self-found league. Hope none has had any similar thoughts, so I won't bother you with a 'repost'. If that is the case I hope somebody would be kind enough to respond though :)

Once it gets to superlarge size, it's best to assume someone won't read every SINGLE post so no worries.

"

1:
I see that this idea gets quite some support. In the first place it's nice this game gives the opportunity to even ask for such things: A player-requested/made-up league. What I'm scared off, as a hardcore-league player + trade system supporter, is what this league would do to the hardcore league. You all seem to be very dedicated to PoE and if you'd move to this Self-Found league I can already see the tumbleweed rolling thru the existing leagues. You'd have 1 set of very satisfied players and one set of players, who like the game as it is now, stuck in an empty league.

A number of the people who post their support aren't playing in ANY league. Many of the folks who do play aren't partying or trading. As such, the majority of folks who will leave are people you haven't been meeting with. The folks you've interacted with are mostly folks who prefer a trading system.

"

2:
The lot of you want to be self-found. Is this to make it more challenging to you? You can be self-found in the regular leagues aswell. What's the issue there? Is it the fact that the drops are low? In my opinion it only seems low, because the players who do trade are getting much better gear than you are. So it might be just a matter of who you wish to compare yourself with. It just seems to me that it troubles you that the grinders/traders seems to be more efficient in acquiring the good stuff. I can understand alot of you don't have time to grind as much as they do, neither do I. I have found 1 exalted so far and the other bits and pieces I got weren't that pretty. I'm still enjoying it.



In my opinion, trading is an essence of any community. There is a demand for something and somebody supplies. That's how it has always been, even traced back to the roots of humanity. If we were self-found as a species we'd probably not be here.

If the current system seems to be inefficient for your playing style, you could also adapt your way of opperating. You work(grind) to get the cash, then you buy your groceries at the supermarket( the grinders ) and you do whatever you want. PoE has no benefitial system, so you got to work for your buck.

The issue, though, is that it's coming from someone who DOES like the trading system. If the trading system was removed, you would not be enjoying the game as much as you would before. Yes you COULD 'adapt' but then you'd ask "Why when the game had the means of having a Trading system?"


In fact, isn't that the fear you have now? You are afraid of the Trade leagues being abandoned, leaving you having to 'adapt' to a life without Trade. In essence, you put up the idea that others should accept a system they do not prefer so that you can maintain a system you prefer.



In most games, we would be left with a battle between those that prefer one style and those that don't. One side will have to adapt and the other will get what they want.

PoE, though, is in a unique situation. For one thing, it's in beta, which is the phase when changes are expected and encouraged. PoE WANTS us to look at the game, think about what we think would improve it, and then voice them. The time to accept the game as is and adapt will come on Release. Until then, they want the suggestions. That's why we are here.

Another aspect is what I wrote about: the people you wish to keep, the ones who would go to the new league, aren't keeping you company. Anyone who doesn't trade or party-the ones playing 'solo'- will never interact with you beyond random 'people' wandering silently in town. If the entire server took up a no-trade no-party mentality, you could have 2000 people and you'd still feel tumbleweeds as your requests go ignored. The only people who you interact with are those who want to meet you. This makes a self found league less painful as the ones who leave aren't the ones who make the server feel 'full'.


As far as "why have a league instead of just playing on your own?" That's a good question and one I keep flinging at others who propose thier own ideas.

The answer is this: The drops seem ok because you base yourself around the trade system. If you go without trade, the drops become harder to work with. The equpment is overall fine (well, they need tweaks but GGG already said they plan to tweak it). The currency, however, is based around trading currencies around. It makes sense since having a system that doesn't need trade will ruin the trade economy. However, people are already making suggestions that will ruin that economy. You are thinking of people who don't trade abandoning the trading system. I am thinking of those people getting GGG to change the current leagues to ruin the system you enjoy now.

Note, if GGG states that they won't do something like this, or if we reach Release without it, then it will be time to adapt. Some, lik myself, will adapt as I am now. Some will leave for other games. For now, though, we are in beta, so we debate.


As far as the fragmentation, btw, this is a future that will be. Even if this idea goes away, GGG already has plans for various leagues to exist. Furthermore, they plan on private paid leagues. A person could pay a fee, get a league jsut as they want it, and pull whoever they wish from the main leagues into theirs. In the end, we'll be a fragmented community. We're just debating over how the pie pieces will look.

Someday you could be posting about how everyone is playing private leagues and no one is playing HC. I imagine someone will post your happiness quote then in reference to 'standard league' players.

+1 from me.

And an additional reason, so that every suggestion to improve crafting and/or orb drop rates wouldn't be met with the fatuous riposte "but xxx would ruin the economy".
Self-found players don't care about the economy. We don't even notice it. And, you know, I don't believe "the economy" is the point of this game or most ARPGs.
What's ruined for us is a game where success is apparently predicated on either unusual luck, or extreme dedication, or (for the majority) steady dedication - but can be short-circuited by people ignoring the actual game for trading.

I've posted in support of the idea before (http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/294789) and a league espousing this (or a pair of leagues, SC / HC) would have my support.

"

Hold on, so what you're after is a solo RACE league?

A league is just a race with a really long duration. There should never be literally permanent leagues except for default and default hardcore as they form the bottom of the entire league structure. Other leagues should function like D2's ladders: reset every six months or so.

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Jakabov wrote:

"

Hold on, so what you're after is a solo RACE league?

A league is just a race with a really long duration. There should never be literally permanent leagues except for default and default hardcore as they form the bottom of the entire league structure. Other leagues should function like D2's ladders: reset every six months or so.

"should" you say. You haven't stated why a person who wants a self-found focused league has to have their progress lost every 6 months.

Races are meant to be just that.. a race against other players. We're going to have paid leagues run by players. Those aren't set to have an end date.

So why 'should' every league end?

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luchies wrote:

Hey lads,. What I'm scared off, as a hardcore-league player + trade system supporter, is what this league would do to the hardcore league. You all seem to be very dedicated to PoE and if you'd move to this Self-Found league I can already see the tumbleweed rolling thru the existing leagues.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't see that my playing at the moment has any effect on the current league as I'm basically invisible... I play solo, default (not brave/quick enough to risk HC with desync) and 99% of the time I don't trade (and even when I do it's just to buy an upgrade when forced, not to sell anything) and if the drops/crafting made it possible then I wouldn't trade at all. Also I'm not that good a player/have the time for my placing on a ladder to have any showing.

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luchies wrote:

In my opinion, trading is an essence of any community.

While this is true, I'm not really part of the community with my play style anyway so going to a self found league I doubt will effect the community and argps started out as all self found and have survived for a long time. So I'm not sure you need a trading community in every single league.

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luchies wrote:

If the current system seems to be inefficient for your playing style, you could also adapt your way of opperating. You work(grind) to get the cash, then you buy your groceries at the supermarket( the grinders ) and you do whatever you want.

To me this flies in the face of what I feel is part of the core of any argp and that's the pleasure of getting items as drops from mob you kill, not just getting currency and buying from a shop.

It's the difference between:-
A) Getting an unexpected wrapped present to open - Unidentified drop from mob.
B) Working x amount of hours and buy specific item from shop - Trading.

A has the enjoyment of a mini xmas present, while B is just work for a set reward and to me it's nowhere near as much fun as A, as each mob you kill "could possibly" drop a present while with B each mob is just a number in the amount needed to get currency to go shopping.
This is the difference between an argp being addictive and consistently wanting to kill that next mob and being a grind.

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The Self Found League

1. No trading possible.
2. All items dropped on the ground are destroyed, as in towns, but in any zone.
3. IIQ/IIR increased by Q/R%, for some high values of Q and R.

sign me up. currently I play in a way that would be better suited to a league like this, ie. I play these types of games to build characters, play the content, but more importantly to collect cool things. tbh I am not at all interested in PvP, trading, nor racing.

I would suggest that items when dropped in instances are only visible to the player that dropped them. There have been many times where I've had to remove something from my inventory due to space/inventory-tetris that has ended up on the ground until i've been able to port back.

So yes, an isolated find-tonnes-of-interesting-stuffs league like this would be great.

This recommendation to instance dropped items looks good to me.

Edit: revised front page as proposed.

bump.

GGG please either fix the current game or give us the self found league.