Cyclone

Ok here's a revelation, you are NEVER going to outdmg cleave if you're DWing with ANY skill unless that skill uses the same mechanics as cleave in regards to DW. It simply isn't happening, because cleave is the only skill that actually uses the 2 weapons, other than dual strike but that's a lot more balanced due to having no dmg efficiency vs 25% for elem single and 50% for heavy.

Until they nerf Cleave to work like every other skill with DW, it's just not happening, doesn't matter how good/bad the skill is. Saying Cyclone is bad with DW compared to cleave is like saying Ground Slam or Lightning Strike is bad with DW compared to Cleave. Yeah duh, no one would say "ground slam is better than cleave for DW" so there is no discussion or argument here, Cleave is ALWAYS better when DW, regardless, and even if it's physical only(which it never truly is anyway since you're probably running hatred/wrath/anger/added fire and +elem dmg on rings and such).

What you want to compare is, is 1h+shield Cyclone as good as 1H+shield cleave? 1H+shield Ground Slam? Or also 2H setups. But when comparing DW, it's absolutely pointless to compare anything to cleave.

Because of this however it means DW claw or DW dagger are still in a dire state, since they in no way compared to DW swords/axes due to cleave.

Now there's 2 ways to fix this. You either add DW specific mechanics similar to cleave to every AoE(or at least Cyclone), or you remove Cleave's DW mechanic and buff DW in other places. Increasing the innate bonus is one way, adding a support gem that works on melee skills to support DW is another I guess but they've been against such a thing due to lack of animation, even though Cleave itself doesn't really attack with 2 weapons so not sure it's THAT big of an issue.

As for Cyclone, I don't think it's terrible, but it's not that good. There isn't that many mechanics that can use the fact it attacks twice per attack, because of the reduced effectiveness. Getting 2 procs of LoH or 2x your flat elemental dmg isn't useful when both of these hits are halved to begin with. It's only really useful for non dmg procs which aren't affected by the effectiveness, like knockback/stun/chance to flee/blind/status ailment, however due to the reduced dmg both stun and status ailment are a bit shaky to proc on higher level mobs(doable, but not guaranteed and requires much better gear). Knockback and Chance to Flee kinda go against the concept of cyclone to an extent(but I think KB with fast movement speed might not be so bad), only really leave Blind which is definitely excelent with Cyclone.

The skill is a bit lacking. Design decisions aside like the min range being too big(should be 30-50% smaller imo) and mana cost being fairly high, it just doesn't add a whole lot to the existing set of melee skills, other than a physical alternative to LS for claws/daggers.

^ agreed.
I wonder why no one compares Cyclone with Sweep. I think Cyclone is more powerful than Sweep right now.

As for knockback, it actually quite useful. I didn't try with the gem, but with a flask, you can pin a mob in front of you for full damage. It's a defensive and offensive CC.

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kodr wrote:

^ agreed.
I wonder why no one compares Cyclone with Sweep. I think Cyclone is more powerful than Sweep right now.

As for knockback, it actually quite useful. I didn't try with the gem, but with a flask, you can pin a mob in front of you for full damage. It's a defensive and offensive CC.

Yeah I agree with the flask it has good applications, because you decide when to turn it on and stuff, knockback via Fending or via the support isn't quite as good imo. That's what I was talking about, the flask is pretty good, though in my opinion if you're pinning a single mob against a wall, you might as well swap to a single target attack, melee is really strong at pulverizing single target mobs in my opinion, that's one of the few advantages of melee.

I think bumping the efficiency up by like 5% would probably help a bit, but really the biggest change that would help would be to reduce the min range by a decent amount. Tweaking the mana cost could also be useful, but the mana cost I feel is deceptive, people see "omg it costs 40mana so expensive" but the fact it's hardcapped by your movement speed and the min range means you tend to spend not that much mana compared to spamming a "normal" aoe like 3times a second with fast weapons.

yeah, but when you spam cleave, you usually hit stuff.
you can actually miss your target with Cyclone for a whole second if you didn't target it well or it move away. No way to leech mana or stop Cyclone if you missed your target, you just have to wait.

That's why the skill is too expensive right now. If you missed, it means you may need to cast it again (and hopefully hit this time).
You can alternate between Cleave and a single target skill if you need, and Cleave cost less while can potentially leech more (because you actually used it when you could leech mana).

For now, the only solution to remove the mana cost is to use Blood Magic or maybe Eldritch Battery if you want to use Cyclone early.
For now, I'm using Blood Magic, I'll try at level 70 to remove it and see if I can sustain the cost, but IMO it's impossible when you get the skill.

some suggestions for improving cyclone mechanics & helping solve desync

* remove the ability to _Target_ enemies with cyclone, so that you're actually cycloning where your client says you are: when you click your cyclone ONTO an enemy, half the time the enemy is not where it says it is (due to desync) and so you end up cycloning onto a corner between a chest or something stupid (this is especially bad in spider-maps/cramped dungeons), meanwhile on your screen you're cycloning-away happily whereas in reality you're trapped between two walls, a chest and enemies, so your range of movement is limited to <45 degrees, however you won't know this until you're either A) dead or B) client resycns or C) you manually type /oos (which I have to to faaar too much).

* remove minimum distance on cyclone: I can't imagine any reason why there needs to be one to begin with - if anyone can let me know that'd be great (I'm stumped). This would also (partially) solve the situation described above, as at least if you're against a wall (server side) you can continue spinning on the spot to damage enemies/LoH instead of standing still like a drongo.

You already have to work so hard to make this skill viable through spec/gear, I don't see why it can't be improved a bit?

I can see a few reasons why there's a min distance (even if I also think it's bad):
- justify the high mana cost
- maybe reduce the strain on the server, no need to calculate small movement
- it's actually quite nice, gameplay wise, to not have to move your cursor too far from your character to go back and forth, you just have to click in front of him.



edit:
heh, the problem I have right now is "should I take the endurance charge or the frenzy one?"...
At first I wanted to grab the endurance (I currently have 6), but I'm level 58 and I didn't have any trouble surviving at this point with 2k armor and 2k evasion.
Cyclone is super safe with blind...

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Racthoh wrote:

So one of two things.

1) It can't crit
2) It doesn't trigger the "gain a frenzy charge on crit strike" of my Terminus Est.

So there is a bug there, not sure which (and don't feel like looking through 52 pages to see which it is).

With a lot of attack speed and only at level 1 I find it stronger than my leveled Cleave. It definitely needs a reduced mana gem to go with it or blood magic. Given that it gets increased attack speed with each level I can't wait to see how powerful it gets.

The way crit works kinda sucks with Cyclone.
The crit rolls only when you use the skill. If the skill crits, all your hits will crit.
It's kinda pointless for now to spec into crit with Cyclone.

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kodr wrote:

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Racthoh wrote:

So one of two things.

1) It can't crit
2) It doesn't trigger the "gain a frenzy charge on crit strike" of my Terminus Est.

So there is a bug there, not sure which (and don't feel like looking through 52 pages to see which it is).

With a lot of attack speed and only at level 1 I find it stronger than my leveled Cleave. It definitely needs a reduced mana gem to go with it or blood magic. Given that it gets increased attack speed with each level I can't wait to see how powerful it gets.

The way crit works kinda sucks with Cyclone.
The crit rolls only when you use the skill. If the skill crits, all your hits will crit.
It's kinda pointless for now to spec into crit with Cyclone.

The way crit works with cyclone does not suck, it is borderline overpowered. Once it rolls crit it one-shots the entire pack of mobs. Attack speed and crit are the only 2 things you should spec into when doing a cyclone build. If you are not specing crit cyclone will always be worse than sweep/cleave.

Can I just say that Cyclone is the most dangerous(player wise) skill in PoE?

Whoever thought it's a good idea to make an uncontrollable skill needs to spend some time playing the game a bit more.

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drakar8888 wrote:

The way crit works with cyclone does not suck, it is borderline overpowered. Once it rolls crit it one-shots the entire pack of mobs. Attack speed and crit are the only 2 things you should spec into when doing a cyclone build. If you are not specing crit cyclone will always be worse than sweep/cleave.

Maybe with DW daggers, but not with 2H weapons. Sweep is pretty bad once you are in Merciless.
I'm currently cruising in Merciless, I completed the Crematorium at level 59 (area was 61).