XP loss on death, why?

"

frenzul wrote:

Yeah I'm not sure why this post is even a thing.

Why play if there is zero risk?

No one is talking about "zero risk". The problem I personally have with PoE's XP penalty system is that it gives you zero room for error, and makes every mistake irrecoverable. There are other ways to handle this. For instance, in Diablo 2 you could recover 75% of your lost XP if you made it back to your corpse without dying again. A similar system is used in the Dark Souls series: if you die, your souls (equivalent of XP in that game) drop to the ground, and you have to travel back to the spot where you died from the last bonfire to recover them. If you die again, that's it, you've lost all your progress to the next level, but at least you're given one chance to correct your mistake. In PoE, you're given none. And please don't tell me that D2 and DS1-3 are/were "casual" games :D

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

"

ThePesmergia wrote:

....

congratulations on one of the most stupid posts Ive ever read. Where to even begin responding to that? Is it even worth responding at all?

"Try running a t16 map at lvl85" "ppl just use bots" "ppl buy currency to amke the game easy"... lol mate. I suggest you stop talking and start reading, learn a thing or 2.

For someone posting something so stupid you sure as hell dodged it all, and literally did not respond to anything stated with logical remarks using game mechanics as a relevant source, but actually mad childish response with no foundation behind it.

Keep dreaming sister and buying currency. You have offered no constructive criticism and only troll responses. You've obviously bought your way to where you are, because you're clueless as hell kid.

I'll more than welcome an actual argument besides an angry kid dodge from you of over 6 paragraphs of legitimate game info anyone who has played a T3 map knows of, yet you think is somehow impossible. (which again shows your lack of game knowledge, considering you cannot understand basic map mechanics, and gear progression mechanics) SCREAMS bought character.

Go back to playing your chinese bought Jug, because you're obviously angry you got called on legit info, had no response, and had to resort to dodging my whole post.

"WAAAAAAAAAH!" Thanks for giving me a New Years smile.

"

DGTLDaemon wrote:

"

frenzul wrote:

Yeah I'm not sure why this post is even a thing.

Why play if there is zero risk?

No one is talking about "zero risk". The problem I personally have with PoE's XP penalty system is that it gives you zero room for error, and makes every mistake irrecoverable. There are other ways to handle this. For instance, in Diablo 2 you could recover 75% of your lost XP if you made it back to your corpse without dying again. A similar system is used in the Dark Souls series: if you die, your souls (equivalent of XP in that game) drop to the ground, and you have to travel back to the spot where you died from the last bonfire to recover them. If you die again, that's it, you've lost all your progress to the next level, but at least you're given one chance to correct your mistake. In PoE, you're given none. And please don't tell me that D2 and DS1-3 are/were "casual" games :D

Come on man so much hyperbole in your post. First off it does not make every mistake irrecoverable , you can recover it easily with time.

Recovering your body for XP would be to easy in the PoE endgame of maps, though maybe they could implement some kind of xp buff for 5 mins on picking up your corpse to slightly lessen the blow from 80-93 after that it wouldn't matter as the loss is too severe anyhow.

D2 it was far harder to actually make it to 100 than in PoE , so if they added back in some way to give you back xp they would need to double triple or more the needed xp from 80 -100 and given the nature of leagues that seems dumb as it wont stop the group grinders that hit 100 but will hamper the guys that try and get it by leagues end and barely make it ( none of them are me i stop at 93 , just like in D2 i stopped at 92 always)

Also if you played those games you should have learned to ADAPT , you know whats coming in PoE , dont run maps with elemental weakness , and added damage plus crit mods if you dont want to get one shot. Or make a hero that clears from 3 screens away. What you are saying is i want to use my playstyle ( that obviously gets you killed sometimes) but i dont want to do any of the things that many others do and are SUCCESSFUL at doing to mitigate my XP loss. As exhibit A i will point to the Hardcore XP ladder and the lvl 100s there , you may rebuke that you dont want to play that way , and neither do I but im also not on here asking for nerfs or the casualization of this one of the last semi hardcore multiplayer games left.

"

DGTLDaemon wrote:

"

IMBrewmaster wrote:

I got my Juggernaut to 100 before hp buff using Cospri's Will with something like 5.4k hp in Essence, without any beachhead shit that nullified lvl 100 prestige in Harbinger.

And how did you get there, may I ask? Were you running the Guardians? The Shaper? At least some T14-T15 maps with random mods? Or were you farming Shaped Strands until your eyes would bleed, just like everybody else? Because if the latter was the case, then it only proves my point :)

God forbid i would choose a proper strategy and execution for reaching something as unforgiving as level 100, instead i have should have ran a t3 build like RF Jug which has no damage to speedclear, ran the stated t3 build into high reds and fail there because build has a softcap scaling with money invested and complain that since my choice of builds and my lackluster ability to pilot a close range builds is not up the task, everything should be lowered to my level.

Dude, if you failed to get level 100 in Harbinger, you shouldnt even be allowed to have an opinion on the matter. I think Harb had more 100s than Prophecy + Essence + Breach + Legacy combined.

lvl100 hasnt really universally meant anything for over a year thanks to people reaching it in 2 weeks running vaal spark and fireball down shaped strands for 12 hours a day. The number is irrelevant now, ppl have managed to hit lvl100 with less effort than it took to get to the mid to late 80s in open beta. It can mean something, but it hasnt necessarily for an long time.


It wasnt my intention to start a flame war, an epeen measuring contest, any kind of player on player hostility with my line of discussion. The way ppl play, the way they build, the level of gear they use, the league they play in, none of it matters, it doesnt say anything about a person and people dont even matter in thse conversations. What matters is the game, were talking game balance, were talking what is possible and what is not possible, are there mechanics we can use to chain high tier maps and survive.


My assertion is that randomly dying to rare mobs is not a given, that you dont have to 'only die to this and that', you can just not die. People manage it in hc, my experience tells me that I could make a wide variety of builds that, if played properly, could make it to lvl100 with a clean slate playing rare T12-16 maps. I may not be the player whos consistently careful enough to do it on all of them but Im 100% certain it can be done. Thats not a personal attack on anyone, thats not claiming Im a better person or even a better gamer than anyone, I just believe that is a mechanical fact of the game based on experience.

DGTLDaemon has posted a lot on the forums, I see him around, I respect him and value his posts and Im not knocking him or anyone else.

"

ThePesmergia wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

"

ThePesmergia wrote:

....

congratulations on one of the most stupid posts Ive ever read. Where to even begin responding to that? Is it even worth responding at all?

"Try running a t16 map at lvl85" "ppl just use bots" "ppl buy currency to amke the game easy"... lol mate. I suggest you stop talking and start reading, learn a thing or 2.

For someone posting something so stupid you sure as hell dodged it all, and literally did not respond to anything stated with logical remarks using game mechanics as a relevant source, but actually mad childish response with no foundation behind it.

Keep dreaming sister and buying currency. You have offered no constructive criticism and only troll responses. You've obviously bought your way to where you are, because you're clueless as hell kid.

I'll more than welcome an actual argument besides an angry kid dodge from you of over 6 paragraphs of legitimate game info anyone who has played a T3 map knows of, yet you think is somehow impossible. (which again shows your lack of game knowledge, considering you cannot understand basic map mechanics, and gear progression mechanics) SCREAMS bought character.

Go back to playing your chinese bought Jug, because you're obviously angry you got called on legit info, had no response, and had to resort to dodging my whole post.

"WAAAAAAAAAH!" Thanks for giving me a New Years smile.

well, apart from maybe this dude lol.


Im not dreaming this right? He did actually just write this post?

"

Artaniz wrote:

"

DGTLDaemon wrote:

"

frenzul wrote:

Yeah I'm not sure why this post is even a thing.

Why play if there is zero risk?

No one is talking about "zero risk". The problem I personally have with PoE's XP penalty system is that it gives you zero room for error, and makes every mistake irrecoverable. There are other ways to handle this. For instance, in Diablo 2 you could recover 75% of your lost XP if you made it back to your corpse without dying again. A similar system is used in the Dark Souls series: if you die, your souls (equivalent of XP in that game) drop to the ground, and you have to travel back to the spot where you died from the last bonfire to recover them. If you die again, that's it, you've lost all your progress to the next level, but at least you're given one chance to correct your mistake. In PoE, you're given none. And please don't tell me that D2 and DS1-3 are/were "casual" games :D

Come on man so much hyperbole in your post. First off it does not make every mistake irrecoverable , you can recover it easily with time.

Recovering your body for XP would be to easy in the PoE endgame of maps, though maybe they could implement some kind of xp buff for 5 mins on picking up your corpse to slightly lessen the blow from 80-93 after that it wouldn't matter as the loss is too severe anyhow.

D2 it was far harder to actually make it to 100 than in PoE , so if they added back in some way to give you back xp they would need to double triple or more the needed xp from 80 -100 and given the nature of leagues that seems dumb as it wont stop the group grinders that hit 100 but will hamper the guys that try and get it by leagues end and barely make it ( none of them are me i stop at 93 , just like in D2 i stopped at 92 always)

Also if you played those games you should have learned to ADAPT , you know whats coming in PoE , dont run maps with elemental weakness , and added damage plus crit mods if you dont want to get one shot. Or make a hero that clears from 3 screens away. What you are saying is i want to use my playstyle ( that obviously gets you killed sometimes) but i dont want to do any of the things that many others do and are SUCCESSFUL at doing to mitigate my XP loss. As exhibit A i will point to the Hardcore XP ladder and the lvl 100s there , you may rebuke that you dont want to play that way , and neither do I but im also not on here asking for nerfs or the casualization of this one of the last semi hardcore multiplayer games left.

D2 was a joke to hit 100. it was all about Wisp Projectors and other absorb gear to avoid deaths. What the hell are you smoking? You could also hit HIGHER max resists with gear, whereas POE you cannot, and D2 you could absorb elemental damage as healing.

Adapt? So adapt from being 1 shot by completely dodging 1 shot maps? How the hell is that "adapting" rather than "dodging"?

No people are SUCCESSFUL at mitigating exp loss by leveling in much lower maps than they should that are "SAFE ZONES".

You can reach higher "SAFE ZONES" by overleveling these zones, and hitting life % nodes in the passive tree that outscale the zones themselves. How the hell else can you OUTSAFE zones other than hitting higher life than the zones can subtract from you? You cannot, it's simple mathematics. Have more life than the zone can take from you in intervals that are reactionary and calulatable with time intervals that are POTTABLE in human reactionary time.

Nothing else is "SAFE" other than being able to have life that is higher than a zone can take it from you in human reactionary time frames. And many of these in a gear progression sense are ridiculous.

Progressing in a sensible and legitimate manner in relevance to gear progression you CANNOT make a logical and factual statement that insta gibs and even gibs at regular intervals with decent gear do not happen. You would literally be arguing that gear progression does not exist in the meta to cover this. And it's nonsense you even state such.

It's hard as HELL to be safe, even playing in semi safe environments WITH gear progression and optimal builds. The only argument you even have is to completely "AVOID" mechanics that exist in the game, yet poor players CANNOT avoid these when they are poor and must run their own maps and cannot afford to even take the chance in selling crappy maps no one else would even buy if they were in their same boat.

It's even ridiculous to consider that a 10% exp loss on death is fair. 10% on 95+ exp is EXTREMELY HIGH, and dozens of safe maps. This is not a casual vs hardcore debate. It's a ridiculously overtuned mechanic vs fair debate.

There's many other optimal methods of punshment already in place such as "X" amount of portals = cannot complete map. There's 2 STACKED punishment mechanics. Map incompletion, and exp loss. Technically there's 3 mechanics. Because you lose the map you invested in on top of this. And actually even more mechanics of punishment, 4 punishment mechanics even, because you lose the map + the materials you used to create the map. And in T11+ you lose SUCCESSFUL vaal orb maps along with it or alchemy orbs + the map.

I think the amount of punishment is FAR overtuned in this regard as 5 alchs or a T11+ map is NOT cheap to someone poor pushing progression. There's 4 avenues of punishment. Exp loss. Losing the map. Losing the materials. Time investment (a combination of getting the map, the mats, and the exp).

At least in D2 there weren't consumables with RNG (maps) that were directly tied to progression(high costly maps = exp). And these consumables + maps are directly tied to CURRENCY at the same time. You could just exp without spending currency in D2. And D2 is HARDER? LOL! Ok let's make D2 you spend 1/2 a Shako per MAP you clear.

That is kind of the WHOLE point. The game takes currency away from you if you die in POE. Map = currency. If you die, not only do you lose the exp, you lose the 20+ maps you invested in, which is dozens of chaos worth of exp, on top of the exp.

Spin it all you want, it's not fair to anyone. If you invest into a map, regardless if you die, you should have something to show even if you die. And don't give me the drop crap bs, no one is guaranteed any amount of drops in a map. And to be fair, averaging over 1,000 maps the currency drops, you would probably average 1-2 alchs per maps if you sold everything, and spent 5 times longer selling yellows as you should.

if you die once a day youre doing something very wrong. Talking about limited portals to a map being some kind of death punishment, losing maps, not getting completion bonus? Are we talking about dying 6 times in 1 map? Is that actually being discussed?


I dont even.



You cant outlevel red tier maps, theyre designed for characters who are 90-100.

I dunno. I play an extremely safe build that is immune to most forms conventional damage.

I can afk in HoGM. I can afk and kill Shaper. I can tank every single one-shot in the game except for Uber Atziri's Flameblast and run any combination of no regen, multi-crit, elemental damage, lower reistance, mod possible. And the build costs 2 exalts.

So, I dunno. I know my build is one of the extreme outliers in the game, but it's not impossible to be extremely safe while mapping. It just depends how much clear speed you want to sacrifice.

this is the thing, people doubt u can make builds that dont die to content even when theyre being played well and killing mobs, meanwhile the reality that Im seeing is that at the extremes people can afk this stuff. Making a build that can simply survive it while actively engaging in combat and kiting? Its totally doable with many mechanics. Sure it takes gear and levels, its a gear and xp game, of course those things are part of it.

Block is great, evasion is great, dodge, enfeeble on cwdt is strong, then theres so many possible damage reductions that can be stacked without too much investment. Theres options beyond just having hp, hp is a start, its a core essential, but u then do 4, 5, 6+ other things on top, and things that work differently. Get phys mitigation, sure, but then get some kind of significant attack avoidance as well, and if u can get spell avoidance, and then get some kinds of recovery like regen or return on block, leech, loh, you want many things that work differently and are at their best against different sorts of incoming damage all piled on top of each other.

Dont just stack damage reduction on top of damage reduction and call it a day, armour + endurance + basalt = youre gonna die to a burst of ele attack damage. Dont get 3 forms of avoidance and then thats defence sorted, evasion + dodge with a bit of block? No, thats all doing the same thing, thats 3 avoid attacks layers with the same hole in every one of them and some monster is gonna drive a bus full of phys damage explosives right through the gap in all 3 of your layers. Get all those things, but then get 3 different phys reductions too, and then get regen and leech, and then play well.

These things are in the game, if you dont use them thats a choice youre making and youre responsible for the consequences. I fail the play well part every day, and I get away with it because I go to lengths to make sure Im using the mechanics.

"

IMBrewmaster wrote:

God forbid i would choose a proper strategy and execution for reaching something as unforgiving as level 100, instead i have should have ran a t3 build like RF Jug which has no damage to speedclear, ran the stated t3 build into high reds and fail there because build has a softcap scaling with money invested and complain that since my choice of builds and my lackluster ability to pilot a close range builds is not up the task, everything should be lowered to my level.

Dude, if you failed to get level 100 in Harbinger, you shouldnt even be allowed to have an opinion on the matter. I think Harb had more 100s than Prophecy + Essence + Breach + Legacy combined.

So are you trying to say that a build that can reach 40/40 and do any content in the game, including Shaper, Uber Atziri and a few hundred Guardian runs, does not belong in high reds? Ah, that's right, "proper strategy". Which usually involves farming boring, retarded, low-tier shaped crap because that's how GGG want you to level.

And BTW, since you keep repeating the same thing in every post, let me clarify something. I didn't "fail" to reach 100 in Harbinger, I stopped at 98 because I got bored AF farming the shallow end of the pool, which in that particular case was Beachheads, as they replaced the Shaped Strand meta in Harbinger. Do you really think there was any practical difference between doing 50 beachheads from 97 to 98, 70 beachheads from 98 to 99, and 100 beachheads from 99 to 100 (my numbers may be slightly off, as I'm pulling them from memory)? That's the whole point I'm making. I knew I could handle any content in the game, but the XP penalty mechanic forced me into running content that I felt was too low-tier and insufficiently challenging and exciting for me. Because of the XP penalty, there's a huge gap between playing at the very limit of your skill and ability (which is, really, what everyone should always be doing in any video game ;), and leveling safely without dying. And yes, I specifically highlighted that part, because it summarizes everything that I feel is wrong with the current system.

@Snorkle_uk: Thank you for yor kind words, sir, and for all the build advice you're posting in this thread. Knowledge is power, and input from someone as experienced as you is greatly appreciated :)