XP loss on death, why?

The issue is the amount of exp lost in maps. Not the function of it being there. 1 death can cost you hours of exp progression past level 92.

1 death is 10%, or 2 bars of exp. The function of exp gain at high levels vs death frequency FORCES you to do high maps to get this exp at a substancial rate vs spamming lower safe maps, and getting 1 bar of exp every hour, which is nothing.

Doing T8 at level 92+ will take ages to even dent 1 bar of exp, and 1 single death nullifies all your work. This is the issue.

This isn't even getting into the 95+ levels. As exp there onward is a nightmare to achieve. And 1 death can cost you TONS of time.

The punishment for deaths is way too much and needs toned down. I can deal with it. I am almost 92, and have relatively few issues with it, but 95+ is going to be scary, as you need MUCH more exp to level. And to get any substancial exp 95+, you WILL be forced into very high maps.

By then, you should be relatively safe to deal with them, but you will take a death here and there, even if you are careful and have a good build. And this will punish you much more than it should.

The exp loss doesn't feel like a "punishment" mechanic. It feels like an overtuned "play poe more hahaha u died and made 1 small mistake in 30+ maps" mechanic.

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Ludvator wrote:

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KiadawP wrote:

NO ONE is asking for NO penalty on death. Why do people INSIST on answering a question ON ONE asked!

There is no point in a discussion if people don't even know the dicussion!

The question is NOT if death penety should be removed (obviously it shouldn't & I don't know anyone that say otherwise), the question to be answered is if XP losss is well design, & if there are better altenatives. For instance, rewarding people who can do tougher content without dying, vs punishing people for failing, the latter encourage taking on LESSER contents.

One of the main functions of penalty is to prevent sub-optimal builds from reaching lvl 100. Do you know any alternative ways to achieve that?

A) There is nothing stoppping 'sub optimum' builds to reach level 100 if they are willing to grind at safe zones. Literally all builds are doing that, just that the safe zones are a few tier in differences, thats all.

Also Since when do max level determine the quality of a build?


B) Whats the point of designing a penanty systemn where <1% of the player feel obligated to achieve.

I seen Alkaizer Twitch, he literally get to 100 running shaped vault.


If I am to design the penalty system, I will design base on rewarding not dying by giving Exp & loots boost when you have not die recently (we can tune this figure, maybe 30min), also loot drop will be link to difficulty of tier.->higher level_>More & Better Loots

This enoucrage peole to take on tough contents without wait for beginning of next level like many of us do, & doing tougher mods at higher tier. Penalty for dying is there, not its not rage quit level for overall better experience in the game.


So how does this system prevent zerging to level 100. It doesn't, what it does however is it make sure better builds (faster killm die less) can reach level 100 much faster & have better loots while at it. Everyone wins!

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Mikrotherion wrote:

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KiadawP wrote:

NO ONE is asking for NO penalty on death. Why do people INSIST on answering a question ON ONE asked!

There is no point in a discussion if people don't even know the dicussion!

The question is NOT if death penety should be removed (obviously it shouldn't & I don't know anyone that say otherwise), the question to be answered is if XP losss is well design, & if there are better altenatives. For instance, rewarding people who can do tougher content without dying, vs punishing people for failing, the latter encourage taking on LESSER contents.

You're wrong. The question is "XP loss on death, why?" it's not "10% XP loss on death, why not <10%?"

He didn't ask for lower XP penalty on death, yes, but he didn't ask for NO penalty.Thats my whole point.

Dicussion should be either of

- defend the XP lost Penalty, or
- propose better solution.

& NOT
If there must be penalty on death! A pointless dicussion where since literally everyone would agree there must be some form of penalty.

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Elua wrote:

For me xp penalty means quitting PoE much faster each league. I will NOT waste time on this bullshit.

well why dont you just make builds that dont die if you care about it that much?

This is why i have continued to support the game ( i buy stash tabs every league i play ) since 2012ish , These devs have never caved to the desire of casuals. Xp loss on death is an important part of the game if you removed it everyone would grind to whatever level you removed it to easily. If you didnt start xp loss till 95 everyone would make 95 and it would cheapen the game.

People are always calling for the casualization of this game , be it in the form of an integrated AH , or the removal of the XP loss mechanic. There are always calls for making this game more casual , and i sleep easy knowing these devs will not cave to these things because from the start they were actual hardcore d2 players themselves and they understood that some people still want that hardcore game experience or at least what little of a hardcore experience you can still have in modern gaming .

I played a lot of everquest from 98-2004 , You have not seen painful XP loss until you have lost a level . PoE is fairly casual xp loss honestly you cant lose a level you just go to 0 xp at your level . And as others have stated if you die thats on you you deserve to take the xp loss , learn not to die or accept that builds dont need levels past 80 if they are actually viable anything past 80 should really just be icing on the cake not needed levels for a build.

Thanks GGG for never caving to casuals .

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

well why dont you just make builds that dont die if you care about it that much?

Last league I ran an RF Juggernaut with 11k life and a ton of layered defences, and even for that uber-tanky build, the only relatively "safe" high-level zone was Beachheads. The game is just too randomly rippy. A combination of dangerous map mods with evil rare mobs coming out of nowhere can kill any build with any amount of EHP. I'm not saying it's bad game design, it is a feature of the game, but these random rips combined with XP penalty on death make it prohibitive to level in high-tier content.

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Artaniz wrote:

People are always calling for the casualization of this game , be it in the form of an integrated AH , or the removal of the XP loss mechanic. There are always calls for making this game more casual , and i sleep easy knowing these devs will not cave to these things because from the start they were actual hardcore d2 players themselves and they understood that some people still want that hardcore game experience or at least what little of a hardcore experience you can still have in modern gaming

Don't compare PoE to D2. There were dangerous mobs in D2 like the infamous stygian dolls, but they always spawned in specific areas, and dealt a predictable amount of damage, so players knew what to expect. In PoE, damage spikes (and, therefore, rips) are much more random.

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Vresiberba wrote:

That would be fine and all, if playing a glass-cannon build was something you're not supposed to do. Alas, it is, all in accordance to GGG's build philosophies, perfectly fine to play glass cannon builds.

Uh no its not, and GGG don't want you playing glass cannons. You realize the mental gymnastics you are doing here yes? The death penalty is there to stop people from playing glass cannons. But then you claim that GGG want people playing glass cannons and thus the death penalty opposes that. If GGG wanted people playing glass cannons they already wouldn't have the death penalty there, not to mention that there wouldn't be so many forms of defense in the game.

It probably instills a sense of fear/dread of dying even in soft core.

If there was no penalty loss I would go full YOLO offensive, knowing dying just means getting back to the portal. With XP loss I actually bother about not dying, or not dying too many times attempting a boss. It actually gives value to defensive builds and gear.

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ThePesmergia wrote:

But on the other hand, in T12+, map mods are random, and there's many RNG 1 shot map rolls that are out of your control, that punish for no reason, even though you're geared for it even.

So...

That's a false statement most mods are not 1 shot, it's laying of the mods. Player skill, and gems/gear can negate many things. Many people put Immortal call on CWDT. If you manually cast it, you can actually tank big hits from bosses etc. lots of players don't want to bother with it, it also takes knowledge and skill.

Back when reflect hurt and I had archers with high dps, I'd often just toss the skill onto a totem for a good reflect map. It was slower, but hey I could get through them.

If you layer defenses. Armor/block/MoM leech, etc. you can survive many mods. You choose to play where you rely on HP pool only therefore you die.

the games pretty rippy now but I still think the entire HC ladder kinda proves why theres an XP penalty, because if you can do it without dying at all you can surely do it where you can die but you lose 10% xp.

Like others have said its there to ensure people don't get 100 naturally, I probably don't care personally if they let everyone get 100 or not I always call a char done at 92/93 and leave them there. this isn't because I can't hit 100 though its because mind numbing numbers of insert shaped map here is just not interesting to me, i'd rather play something new.

So overall I think GGG's view is that 100s only real purpose is as a ladder objective which means it has to have relevant gates to accessing it or it'd be the glass cannon tard ladder.

Whether the glass cannon tard ladder would actually be worse is up for debate. I personally think It would be but not by much, chain shaped vault is extremely boring, alch and go without any concern because you can just throw your body at it isn't any more interesting to me. The difference is a meaningful death penalty means they have to balance around it, the knock on of that is we get balance changes appropriate for it which helps hardcore where I play so thats really my only angle.

Edit: much of this probably makes no sense, i was drinking heavily while writing it.