For the love of god, please, rework DEXTERITY. (Updated)

If I had to make an analogy, Str would be considered the big brother tailed by his sycophantic little brother Int. Dex is the littlest brother that gets bullied by the other two.

That's how bad the disparity between Str/Int and Dex is. To make Int on par with Str, it's actually quite simple - reverse the labels. +10 Int would grant +5 to ES and +2% to mana. Mana is a whole separate issue that is exacerbated on the dex side of the tree as well as the obvious options: BM, EB, and BM support.

I personally don't have a solution to making Dex better. The evasion I can agree with, but the accuracy part has to go - it's nearly useless (RT, hard to build w/ enough crit to justify) and gives diminishing returns too fast.

Your math doesn't make sense Ozgwald

Base crit chance: weapon dependent, most are 5%, tops out at 8.6% for some types of wands
Base crit multiplier: x1.5

From the mechanics thread:
chance to hit = attacker_accuracy / ( attacker_accuracy + ((defender_evasion/4)^0.8))
min 5%, max 95%

Also, everyone starts with 50 evasion and gets +3 per level, including at 1st level. (Unclear what monster stats are, or where the displayed hit % comes from).

Since I have a level 46 dex character, let's use her and give her a level 46 RT opponent who never invests in dex and never acquires evasion from gear.

My character sheet displays a to-hit of 87%, so we can solve for what the expected monster evasion is at 46th level. An evasion rating of 1500 gives a to-hit of .8714..., which is within rounding tolerances and is a nice round number.

If I increase my Acc to 1000 (gaining 223 accuracy, or an increase of ~30%), that only increases my P(hit) to 89%

Consider the following table (all rounded to nearest whole percent except for Acc = 2000)

Level 46
Acc | P(hit|average monster evasion)
2178+ | 95%
2000 | 94.6%
1500 | 93%
1250 | 92%
1000 | 89%
750 | 87%
500 | 81%
400 | 77%
300 | 72%
200 | 64%
100 | 47%
28 | 20% (minimum accuracy)

Keep in mind, 777 represents a substantial investment in accuracy, including +133 Acc on my amulet and 277 total Dexterity. To reach 95% I would have to *triple* my accuracy.

Okay, so, expected damage is a simple equation that looks like the following, right?

Expected damage = P(hit) * (1+(P(crit)*CritMult)) * Base

WRONG. Crits can also be evaded, using a roll identical to the to-hit roll, so the actual chance of a crit is P(crit)*P(hit) - an evaded crit downgrades it to a regular hit. Thus your actual critical rate for attacks is lower than advertised. On a 5% crit weapon with a not-implausible 80% hit rate, you've actually got a 4% crit rate.

Actual expected damage = P(hit) * (1+(P(crit)*P(hit)*CritMult)) * Base

So not only does investing in accuracy suck just from a hitting standpoint, but relying on accuracy screws you on criticals too!

And we're only looking at expected monster evasion. Some monsters have more, and that can seriously impact your chances to hit. (500 Acc at level 46 drops to 74% from 81% if the monster gains 1000 evasion. Considering the possible spread of player evasion at level 46 is >>4000 points, some monsters having 1000 evasion above expected isn't terribly unlikely).

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Doing an actual comparison of RT vs. accuracy is going to be really hard, because level matters. (Monster evasion keeps increasing, which means the impact of some quantity of accuracy is not constant with level, whereas RT has the same effect no matter the level).

Each point of accuracy is worth less than the last in actual returns on to hit as well, so even if you hold level constant, figuring out the returns on a generic +10 dex isn't straightforward.

What is clear is that to even maintain a *constant* to-hit chance against monsters of the same level, you're going to need to constantly invest in accuracy as you level up. RT is a constant 100% hit chance forever.

What is also clear is that, as your to-hit probability goes down, your crit chance also goes down. If you're attacking with weapons that depend on hit rolls, I'm pretty sure this means investing in increased critical chance is basically *never* worthwhile.

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Strill wrote:

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Sev wrote:

Ranged attacks, non-chaos dots, and ele reflect go through Energy Shield?

That's news to me.

Consistent damage will negate energy shield's regen. The most common and hard to avoid forms of consistent damage are ranged attack and dots, chaos or otherwise. Furthermore, having high energy shield increases the limit on the amount of reflected damage you can take in a single hit.

You act as though everything is directly comparable and it's not.

Uhm I may not be the brightest person here but Energy Shield and Health both give you time to move out of (Evade) harms way where as Evasion can fail (I assume indeterminably) without any warning. Nothing you can do about it, no chance to evade or partially mitigate the damage like you can with ES/HP because Evasion doesn't do shit about stripping away the damage from that attack that made it through.

In a completely hypothetical situation to demonstrate my point and I presume the op's point:

500 health
100 armour
500 damage received
400 damage taken after factoring in armour
100 health left

500 health
100 ES
500 Non-chaos damage received
100 damage mitigated by ES
100 health left

500 health
50% chance to evade
500 damage received
failed to evade damage without any prior warning to let you know evasion will fail
0 health left

My math does make sense. I portrayed the essence, not the actual figures. If you have more multiplication factors and you can scale those you can scale better. It is that simple and that is what I wanted to demonstrate. I specifically told that in my post as to prevent people from nitpicking -_-

Here some math:
(50 + 1) * 1 = 51
50 * (1 + 1) = 100
This is the same essence of how it is balanced out in an even simpler form written down and the math is right and sound.

I also mentioned that crits probably get rolled again vs accuracy on monsters just as on characters. So no reason to write down in a way that I missed that. Despite what you say there is a break even point where simply accuracy and crit based builds will out-damage the RT builds.

That point gets shifted for every node in dmg the RT person takes for every point in damage the accuracy guy takes. What sucks about accuracy that unlike physical etc. it has horrid scaling as each point is worth less later in the game.

If you look purely at accuracy and if you negate crit than it shows how poor it is. It is really crap, I said as much in the 1st reply I made in this thread. However the balance isn't around just accuracy and not take-ing into account crit, the balance is around the fact you can crit and the value of those crit nodes, gem support etc.

Like 2 months ago someone put it down in a spreadsheet and ofc you don't get a simple graph of 1 line vs the other, you are looking at a surface. This showed that you have to invest in crit, crit mult and acc and this combination will scale better than RT.

The parts that suck:

1. The system sucks in PoE, blame goes to Desync. You miss more than what accuracy implies.
2. You have a limited amount of points available and that break even is hard to achieve if you are ignoring the fact that life nodes are so much more valuable.

Also do not underestimate status ailments and the value they hold, though it would be wrong if they took that into account when balancing the numbers.

A thing I like to see go is the ceiling of accuracy, not even one at 100%. Everything above 100% could be seen as hitting the enemy vitals. Doing some form of extra damage (however that would balance well). You do probably still miss though as long as that accuracy is on ;)

Once you reach the mid-80s, any increase in accuracy is barely noticeable. There are diminishing returns on your chance to hit, so you're only getting a measly 1% for a buttload of accuracy in that range.

Neither health nor mana nor melee physical damage have diminishing returns.

Evasion is broken because the more hits you evade, the higher your chance of getting hit the next time. That's bollocks as well because HP/ES/Armor doesn't have some ridiculous mechanism that causes you to take increasing damage depending on how much damage has been done already, or how much damage has been negated.

My biggest peeve with the whole broken statistics system is that in order to increase ANY sort of ranged damage with a primary statistic, you have to increase strength. Who the fuck thought that making wand damage increase with strength was a good idea? Even with bows, strength should only be a secondary damage scaling statistic because the primary attribute requirement is DEXTERITY.

Unless you're POUNDING someone over the head with your bow (or wand), strength shouldn't be the deciding factor in how much damage you fucking do.

Seriously guys, stats are retarded.

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johnmaikeru wrote:

Once you reach the mid-80s, any increase in accuracy is barely noticeable. There are diminishing returns on your chance to hit, so you're only getting a measly 1% for a buttload of accuracy in that range.

Neither health nor mana nor melee physical damage have diminishing returns.

Evasion is broken because the more hits you evade, the higher your chance of getting hit the next time. That's bollocks as well because HP/ES/Armor doesn't have some ridiculous mechanism that causes you to take increasing damage depending on how much damage has been done already, or how much damage has been negated.

My biggest peeve with the whole broken statistics system is that in order to increase ANY sort of ranged damage with a primary statistic, you have to increase strength. Who the fuck thought that making wand damage increase with strength was a good idea? Even with bows, strength should only be a secondary damage scaling statistic because the primary attribute requirement is DEXTERITY.

Unless you're POUNDING someone over the head with your bow (or wand), strength shouldn't be the deciding factor in how much damage you fucking do.

Seriously guys, stats are retarded.

Uh, its not some weird scaling thing like the more hits you evade the thigher your chance, its you are gaurenteed to evade the 44% of hits made towards you as long as you are still being hit. THere is no 'strangeness' to this, and indeed it is the most elegant solution as it is RELIABLE unlike armour.

If evasion was just a little better, you could use evasion as a primary defense, because of this reliability. If you could reach 75% evasion and have the life available to survive 3-4 hits and the regen to regen those hits in time through leech/liferegen, then you would be invincible

http://en.pathofexilewiki.com/wiki/Evasion

You're guaranteed to be hit. Evasion is meant to be a primary defence- you seem to be confused about the actual role of evasion in the game. Even if it wasn't meant to be a "primary [sic] defense", you're admitting that dex builds are gimped from the get-go.

This issue has been flayed multiple times throughout the span of this thread- evasion is stupid and any/all of the top ladder characters use Iron Reflexes or have some sort of hybrid build.

Armor/HP/ES is fucking reliable. Evasion is not.

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johnmaikeru wrote:

http://en.pathofexilewiki.com/wiki/Evasion

You're guaranteed to be hit. Evasion is meant to be a primary defence- you seem to be confused about the actual role of evasion in the game. Even if it wasn't meant to be a "primary [sic] defense", you're admitting that dex builds are gimped from the get-go.

This issue has been flayed multiple times throughout the span of this thread- evasion is stupid and any/all of the top ladder characters use Iron Reflexes or have some sort of hybrid build.

Armor/HP/ES is fucking reliable. Evasion is not.

Evasion IS reliable, armour is not.

HP is reliable

ES is reliable

Go learn about the actual mechanics. Evasion you are gaurenteed to be hit AT SOME POINT, but you will actually evade the correct amount of hits so you can plan around it. Armour you can't, as you can't plan around the difference between a 3k hit and a 1k hit.

All of the top ladder characters use IR because health is their primary resource, IR happens to be very close to the route that those who use EV armours use, and with the unwaverying stance on the same highway and the bonus of not getting stunned being ridiculously valuable, thats why you get IR.

To say that Ev is useless is false. I suggest you read epsi's great thread that was necro'd by another great person who makes great feedback posts. Its not a case of EV is useless, its the problem that even as a tertiary defense it is outshadowed by the HP/Regen/Leech taht you NEED to stack in large number.



As I said, if you could get hte HP to survive 3-4 hits and had ~75% EV you would be invincible. Problem is the size of hits in OB is ridiculous to the point of extreme. Armour is just as useless lategame, thats why everything is HP and avoiding damage by moving around

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Squirrelloid wrote:

tops out at 8.6% for some types of wands

*8.96%

Interesting thread.