For the love of god, please, rework DEXTERITY. (Updated)

@RabidRabbit
So you pumped a ton of HP using passives/equipment, therefor Evasion is fine? Once again, that's just bandaging an issue that the other classes don't have to bother worry about, compromising potential DPS that they wouldn't have to no less. Have fun when you find some +IAS/+Weapon Elemental/+Fire Damage jewelry that you can't use because you're dependent on the Hp mods on your current jewelry to keep you alive. That AoF Templar/Marauder will enjoy those very much in your place though, thanks.

Oh, and speaking from experience, 1.1k HP won't keep crit-enhanced Chaos mobs from killing you instantly, just a heads-up.


As for Resolute technique, the main problem with it is how irrelevant the crit drawback is, unless you specifically build to take advantage of crit. As a DW Frenzy Duelist, my build has very little room for Crit, and over 300 Dexterity. Ironically, I find myself being the least accurate person in Chaos, because Spells and Resolute Technique don't miss ever, whereas no matter how much accuracy I build I miss at least 5% of the time. 5% reduced accuracy is essentially 5% reduced DPS, which is in exchange for a 5% chance to crit for 1.5x damage or.. 2.5% increased DPS. Yes, my DPS would in fact increase if I had Resolute Technique, when I already have capped accuracy. I know I'm being nitpicky here, arguing about 2.5% and 5%, but it still just seems silly.


That said, I understand the drawbacks of many of these abilities are meant to be negated if you don't take advantage, (Acrobatics for example, if you don't use Armor or Eshield) so I guess it more comes down to a matter of whether melee crit is simply too weak or not needing Accuracy ever again is simply too strong.

Its obvious that resolute technique is too strong right now (especially in the current variation of the skilltree).
Every class that is remotely going in the direction of resolute technique, has to pick it up because it is that strong.

Even if you dont go in that direction, you probably should go that way for resolute technique.

Dont be too biased to admit that current iterations of the class (build) you are playing right now are overpowered.
Play several classes in order to get a grasp on the bigger picture, which is balance.

I played a witch as my first class, and i can safely say that cold damage is overpowered in this game.
Chilling opponents is fine (although very powerful already), but being able to freeze the entire screen while dishing out one of the highest dps in the game possible right now, its just obvious how overpowered it is.

Most rares and blue mobs stand absolutely no chance to even touch anything, they just get frozen instantly and die.
Normal mobs are a joke and could just be removed, it wouldnt matter one bit.

Freezing enemies with AOE spells needs to be disabled completely, chilling is fine.
The only thing that should be able to freeze enemies is single target spells, that way you can balance it.

Same thing with immortal call.
Being able to make yourself permanently immune to physical damage pretty early into the game without any drawback whatsoever, is just plain overpowered.
It completely takes away from the game, makes customizing and improving gear useless (because you already are immune to physical damage) and overall is just bad gamedesign.

Immortal call is just failed design and needs to be overhauled or completely removed.
You cant allow spells of this kind to have a way to be permanent (which is the case for immortal call).
From the beginning you need to think about how you can prevent this and the easiest way is to add a long cooldown, but increase its base duration significantly.


That way, immortal call is a powerful spell, but has a drawback which prevents it from ever being permanent (achieved through a long cooldown).

"

Greenmind wrote:

As for your comments saying people who can't handle chaos because of their ability as a player... That's ridiculous. The melee class in this game is terribly gear oriented in chaos. Without the right weapon and at least 4 linked gems I doubt many non-AoF marauders would survive more than a few seconds.

You said that if all classes got nerfed to oblivion, people couldn't do Chaos.

And then took my reply totally out of context.

Give me 80* Orbs of Regret, and I will prove to you that I can handle single-player Chaos with ZERO passives.

GGG can't really nerf the classes any harder than that, can they?

So, IN CONTEXT:

If you can't handle Chaos, because of a change to a keystone or passive layout in the skill forest, and were capable of doing chaos before that change, then it is your fault as a player, not because Chaos is too hard overall.

And my challenge is posted here for all to see:
80* Orbs of Regret, and I will install what I need to for streaming video of my game, and stream/upload a video of doing a zero passive Chaos run as a Ranger.

*: Number of orbs required may increase as I gain levels.
edited to add * for Orb of Regret quantity.

Lets put it it like this.
First of all im posting to revive this thread.
Secondly i dont know what the GGG devs have planned for dex but i do hope its going to give pure dex melee an option to atleast be as effective in chaos as pure str characters or pure int.
Id assume the dex skills/passives/talents arent fully developed and i sincerely hope its a case of *lacking certain things that will be in later* issue.
As i would love to play a pure dex melee without having to rely on specific Gold talents to even take a hit and survive. Like someone else said, theres not enough HP in the dex tree.
And the frenzy effect maybe needs to be reworked? i just hope this issue will fix itself later when GGG devs have more time on this particular issue.

I have a suggestion to add to this thread that could fix evasion. It wouldn't completely fix Dexterity, but it would be a step in the right direction.

From my observations, here's the main problem: evasion has no limiter on spike damage. The other two forms of mitigation available can deal with consistent, rapid low incoming damage as well as high spike damage. But evasion can only protect a character from consistent low to mid-range damage effectively.

- Energy Shield raises the effective total HP of a character much higher than a character with Evasion or Armor, thus a high damage spike removes a smaller percentage of the total effective HP.

- Armor gives a damage reduction, blunting the force of a high damage spike.

Evasion has no similar limiting factor for high damage spikes; the damage either hits the player, or it doesn't.

So here is my proposed solution.

Keep the chance to evade attacks, contested against the attacker's accuracy rating, so that it can continue to deal with consistent, low to mid-range damage. However, add a "reserved" HP percentage of the player's maximum health based on the player's evasion rating that no single attack can remove.

For example, let's say the reserved HP is equal to 1% of the player's maximum health for every 400 evasion points. So if a player has 12000 evasion points, then 30% of the player's total health is safe. In this scenario, no single attack can do more than 70% of the player's maximum health.

This way, when a player is kiting a super-strong rare mob, the mob will have to hit the player at least twice to kill them, and the player will be able to see it coming. If they are skilled enough, they'll be able to react and save themselves.

As an added bonus, this solution is even in the flavor of a dexterity-based character. While a strength-based character can see a devastating attack coming, he can't do anything about it because his armor weighs him down: he has to hope his armor will protect him from death. But a dexterity-based character isn't encumbered and has quick reflexes. If he sees a devastating attack coming, and knows he can't dodge it, he can maneuver himself so that the blow connects with a non-vital part of his body, saving himself from certain death.

If you manage to read through my massive wall-o'-text, let me know what you all think. Thanks.

PS: Some inquisitive stupid person, like me, didn't checked the date of the last post. Please ignore everything if I wrote something stupid.


Shadow your idea is fine at the same time it isn't.

Considering this game pot system, ranged characters with high moving speed would be near immortal. Since they can't be nuked they will always run on low health, recover above the safe range and come back.




My idea would be something like a "reducing damage" based on dex.


Lets follow the logic. A cunning person with skill and experience in fighting is able to not only defend against enemy hits but also able to reduce the damage caused by those hits.

Works almost as jumping backwards in front of a cannon ball, it may not save you but as Newton says, the damage caused to someone running in the same direction of the cannon ball would be less than a rambo-stupid-barabaric person running in the direction of the cannon.

(imagine the impact of a car crashing behind another car going in the same direction or two cars crashing when going in opposing directions)


TL:DR

Dex would not rise health, but would reduce any damage received by a % that its not dependent on your armor stats. (besides the usual miss of course)

Obviously this wouldn't work against magic. But adding magic resistance itens, skills, buffs would help fixing that weakness.




Adding to it, could add DEx user a piercing damage stat. So they can deal more damage to high defensive users, even though they can't deal more damage against normal users.

This would make the tables work in a:

STR beats INT, INT beats DEX, DEX beats STR kind of logic.

The OP is perfectly right. (PS.: I know the topic is old but the topic is interesting)

The problem is that you have to maximite Effective HP(EHP)

EHP = (HP + EShield) * (Dodge * Reduction * Block)

if you have 99% dodge and low HP its like:

0 * 9999999 ---> and its still 0



Currently I play a STR-based Duelist with Resulute Technique and I have to say its totally OP.

Not OP, but REALLY, REALLY HARD OP(compared to all the other Chars I played so far)

It starts on the point that you cant get 100% HitChance with Accurasy.
If you focus on Dex a lot you might get 95% Chance, but never 100%. That means that Resulte Technique compensates the lack of the crit chance by itself

Actually RT provides 2 Boni:

-no ncessety for Accuracy
-initial Damage through improving hitchance to a point an accuracy based Char cannot get.


Furthermore you get a lot of STR and therefor HP.

HP are really effective to improve survivability because of the passives which increase maxHP.

On top of that you can use the weapons(Axes) with the highest DPS.

You bypass the initial weaponmodifier. Instead of useing swords with give you AC you get axes which do not have this Mod but have higher DPS.


To my mind a STR-based Char can be build to be COMPLETY UNBALANCED.
He has highest DPS, can get Health easily and also has strong Damage reductions.

Mathemtically its like:

EHPvsSpell = 999999 * 99999
EHPvsDamage = 999999 * 99999

compared to a full dex Build its like:

EHPvsSpell = 100 * 20000
EHPvsDamage = 100 * 99999

the numbers are of course not true, but they DO illustrate the situation perfectly if you manage to think abstract.


Resulte Technique needs a nerf. Somethink like +20% hitchance.
This would still be pretty awesome, because if you have 80% Hitchance with Acuracy you will get 100% with RT.

i dont agree with the op.

Dex is actually working as intended.

A Dex based char is weak in terms of hps. The aim of playing a dex char is not to ditch out high amounts of dmg. Dex chars main advantages are movement, ranged attacks and evasion.

If the op wants to beef up hps in his/her dex toon.. should use the passive tree structure to gets hps boosts or items. Eventually beefing up a bit of str might not be that bad either.

If you think Dex is OK check out my topic http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/25882
and see if you still feel the same (at least for pure Dex and specially for melee pure Dex)

I havn't read all of this thread but I read a lot of it.

Sounds to me like the problem with a pure dex build would be completely solved with more health, since it would help you take those random bursts of damage.

So how about littering a bunch of flat health nodes all over the dex part of the tree, much like there are fitness nodes in the int part? Them being flat, like the Olaf buff (+45 health is it?), would make sure that they arn't also dependant on picking strength to be as good as they can be.

You'd still need to actually take those nodes for a pure dex build to work, but they wouldn't be out of the way so you wouldn't be forced to hybrid anymore.