Dual Strike

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Islidox wrote:

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Novalisk wrote:

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Islidox wrote:

Well, the best comparison to Dual Strike would be using a 2handed weapon with Heavy Strike. While DS has a 1.1x speed boost, a 2handed weapon is equal or near equal to 2 single-hand weapons DPH-wise, not to mention that Heavy Strike has a 150% DE whereas DS has none. The skills have a gap, and which is why I feel DS could use a buff.

DPS wise 2-handed weapons are about 50% more effective, and that's before external damage sources are added in (items,auras) which work significantly better with high attack speed.

DPH alone is not even close to a fair comparison.

Where in the world are you getting this "50% more effective" figure?

Go to PoExplorer. Top DPS for 1-handers is 350-400. Top DPS for 2-handers is 450-500. Looks like I was being generous and you're just spouting nonsense.

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Additional sources of damage have no relevance because that can equally apply to both weapon types. If you're thinking about ele-Cleave which bringings in high APS and high ele dmg, it has no relevance on this topic as I'm comparing single-target skills to single-target skills.

They have EVERY BIT of relevance. Dual Strike not only applies them TWICE, there's also the fact that 1-handed weapons have innately more attack speed than 2-handers even BEFORE the 10% bonus.

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Novalisk wrote:

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Islidox wrote:

Where in the world are you getting this "50% more effective" figure?

Go to PoExplorer. Top DPS for 1-handers is 350-400. Top DPS for 2-handers is 450-500. Looks like I was being generous and you're just spouting nonsense.

Wasn't comparing DPS was I? I was talking about DPH. If you want to talk DPS, now you're throwing in all sorts of variables into calculating theoretical DPS, e.g. APS, ele dmg, crit chance, crit multiplier, phys dmg. I kept it simpler for comparison by using DPH. If we consider ALL possible mods that can boost the damage on a 1hander, then yes, DWing will overtake 2handers by a large margin. I don't disagree on that point.

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Novalisk wrote:

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Islidox wrote:

Additional sources of damage have no relevance because that can equally apply to both weapon types. If you're thinking about ele-Cleave which bringings in high APS and high ele dmg, it has no relevance on this topic as I'm comparing single-target skills to single-target skills.

They have EVERY BIT of relevance. Dual Strike not only applies them TWICE, there's also the fact that 1-handed weapons have innately more attack speed than 2-handers even BEFORE the 10% bonus.

Did you read this post?

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Islidox wrote:

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Vipermagi wrote:

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Islidox wrote:

Additional sources of damage have no relevance because that can equally apply to both weapon types. If you're thinking about ele-Cleave which bringings in high APS and high ele dmg, it has no relevance on this topic as I'm comparing single-target skills to single-target skills.

It does matter, though. They apply the same to both weapon types, but not the same to both skills. Anger adds damage to every hit, dealing its damage twice with Dual Strike. A simple +10 damage modifier grants +20 damage to Dual Strike (two hits), +15 damage to Heavy (150% DE).

You're right, I forgot to consider that. If so, then's it's more than likely that DS can surpass Heavy Strike without an increase in Damage Effectiveness. And nobody uses Infernal/Glacial/Dominating/LightningStrike/HeavyStrike while dual-wielding. Still, I'd love to see an increase in DE to make it on par with its sibling skills.

I admit I didn't take that into consideration. However, you must've skipped reading this post in your haste to reply. I was strictly using DPH for a point of comparison to make things easier and comparable as I mentioned above. I don't think my line of reasoning is wrong per se; it just doesn't take everything related to DPS into consideration.

I don't have to resort to ad hominem to make a point.

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Islidox wrote:

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Novalisk wrote:

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Islidox wrote:

Where in the world are you getting this "50% more effective" figure?

Go to PoExplorer. Top DPS for 1-handers is 350-400. Top DPS for 2-handers is 450-500. Looks like I was being generous and you're just spouting nonsense.

Wasn't comparing DPS was I? I was talking about DPH. If you want to talk DPS, now you're throwing in all sorts of variables into calculating theoretical DPS, e.g. APS, ele dmg, crit chance, crit multiplier, phys dmg. I kept it simpler for comparison by using DPH. If we consider ALL possible mods that can boost the damage on a 1hander, then yes, DWing will overtake 2handers by a large margin. I don't disagree on that point.

Did you read this post?

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Novalisk wrote:

DPS wise 2-handed weapons are about 50% more effective, and that's before external damage sources are added in (items,auras) which work significantly better with high attack speed.

DPH alone is not even close to a fair comparison.

You must've skipped reading this post in your haste to reply. Whatever, this is getting too heated so let's stop it right here please.

Let's just say I think Dual Strike is fine. Heavy Strike is the one in need of a buff.

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Novalisk wrote:

Did you read this post?

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Novalisk wrote:

DPS wise 2-handed weapons are about 50% more effective, and that's before external damage sources are added in (items,auras) which work significantly better with high attack speed.

DPH alone is not even close to a fair comparison.

You must've skipped reading this post in your haste to reply. Whatever, this is getting too heated so let's stop it right here please.

Let's just say I think Dual Strike is fine. Heavy Strike is the one in need of a buff.

It's because we're comparing apples and oranges (DPH and DPS), which was why the argument started, of which I am at fault for propagating. I debated with your argument rather than attacking you though. I'll leave it at that.

I'm not quite convinced that Heavy Strike is in need of a buff but rather 2handers in general need a buff. If we consider the DPS argument, DWing using Dual Strike on average will always yield higher DPS than 2handers with Heavy Strike. But it isn't so much the skill that gives rise to the difference as it is the total DPS of DWing outweighs 2hander DPS by default.

I also don't agree with buffing Heavy Strike because the skill (along with Bear Trap) set the precedent for the highest damage effectiveness of 150%. The next runner up is Flicker Strike with 125% DE. You could buff the increased damage per level, but Heavy Strike again takes the top with the highest increased damage per level gained. If you were to buff Heavy Strike, I wouldn't know how to go about it without making it overpowered. (As if it wasn't OP before, lol.)

Well I personally think the stun component should be significantly more prevalent, and the knockback component should be removed. But let's not get into a heavy strike discussion within this thread.

I hope you all can excuse the laziness of not wanting to read through seventeen pages of discussion to see if this idea has already been posted, but if not then here it is.

My thoughts on the graphics of dual strike are.. negative. I think it is rather plain and unappealing, not to mention there is no fancy swinging or combo motion whatsoever which is typical when dual-wielding.

In all honesty, I feel that dual strike should be made a support gem. From sources more experienced in this game than myself, I have learned that other melee abilities only cast using the main hand weapon or alternate. Having dual strike as a support gem would cause the linked ability(s) to cast with both weapons.

To balance out the significant damage increase this would provide, a simple damage penalty would suffice.
OR one could consider that it does take an extra socket to use the intended ability with both hands (example requiring both double strike and dual strike compared to a 2handed melee weapon with just double strike that can ALSO be six-linked) but instead receiving higher damage output, debuff/buff stacking and whatnot.

Considering that most skills are better with a 2h or weapon/shield, is there ANY benefits of using Dual strike (or even dual wield) ??

1) DW benefits more from dmg additives than 2h weapons, or weapon/shield because the dmg is combined per attack
2) If you have the same crit modifier on both weapons (lets say 2x Mightflays), they'd always crit together with Dual Strike(if they pass accuracy/evasion).
That means if you have a 300% crit multi on each weapon, you'd practically crit at 600% because each hand critical damage is added for a single roll

3) Does dmg from el. auras (Wrath/Anger/Hatred) get applied twice with Dual Strike? Read *something* about that in this thread but not sure what

With dual strike, is the damage done as a single "merged" hit, or rather as two really fast separate hits? For example, when both weapons deal 10 fire damage will it be delivered as "10, 10" or "20".
I would guess the later. This is relevant for status ailment duration.

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Vipermagi wrote:

Dual Strike is a bit of a confusing mess, but it's still only one hit. Status Ailment duration is based on Damage Dealt, so it sounds like it would take the combined damage.

my question long ago never gotten answered about similar thing but under a slightly specific clause of dagger + claw (or whatever else) triggering adder's touch.