Remove xp penalty's from death

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

GGG, you just look how many different accounts wants something to be changed and how many different account are actuaaly likes the things as is it now. Just look thru the whole history of poe forums.

If GGG listened to every single feedback thread on the forums, the client would be trusted for actions [No Desync], the game would have an AH [A good trade system], surgeons mod would be removed [Crit "OP"], and no penalty for dying ever [Can enjoy maps and eventually reach 100]. This is just this weeks topics, if we go back further it could be a number of things.

[Brackets are my own emphasis.]

I'm actually okay with all of these except removing surgeons (because it means removing player options). The game would be MORE FUN. That's what is important here, not the "hardcore experience" of people who don't even play in the Hardcore leagues.

"

AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

GGG, you just look how many different accounts wants something to be changed and how many different account are actuaaly likes the things as is it now. Just look thru the whole history of poe forums.

If GGG listened to every single feedback thread on the forums, the client would be trusted for actions [No Desync], the game would have an AH [A good trade system], surgeons mod would be removed [Crit "OP"], and no penalty for dying ever [Can enjoy maps and eventually reach 100]. This is just this weeks topics, if we go back further it could be a number of things.

[Brackets are my own emphasis.]

I'm actually okay with all of these except removing surgeons (because it means removing player options). The game would be MORE FUN. That's what is important here, not the "hardcore experience" of people who don't even play in the Hardcore leagues.

You are completely neglecting the negatives of each one of these post. Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but every single one of these proposed suggestions are terrible for the game.

"

AlbinosaurusRex wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

GGG, you just look how many different accounts wants something to be changed and how many different account are actuaaly likes the things as is it now. Just look thru the whole history of poe forums.

If GGG listened to every single feedback thread on the forums, the client would be trusted for actions [No Desync], the game would have an AH [A good trade system], surgeons mod would be removed [Crit "OP"], and no penalty for dying ever [Can enjoy maps and eventually reach 100]. This is just this weeks topics, if we go back further it could be a number of things.

[Brackets are my own emphasis.]

I'm actually okay with all of these except removing surgeons (because it means removing player options). The game would be MORE FUN. That's what is important here, not the "hardcore experience" of people who don't even play in the Hardcore leagues.

Are you solo self found or something?

The real option here is desync or duping. Do you want to deal with a couple of deaths because of desync or do you want every item you find to be worthless, even high end uniques?

Also, death penalty isn't holding people back from getting 100. Once they realize they need to do 100+ 78s per level over 96, they'll give up or that will be the new complaint.

I didn't say you have to agree with me. I've argued for my position on every one of those topics in the relevant threads, so read there if you want to know why I believe what I do. I'll give you the incomplete tl;dr here though:

1. I know that desync isn't going anywhere any time soon, but I can deal with a few cheater (the "rampant cheating" argument is completely overblown) in favor of a more stable, solid game play experience.

2. It should never take months to get to 100--or at least not due to losing exp. It shouldn't be "free" either (which in true-to-form style, you naysayers keep exaggerating the "consequences"), but should be a simple matter of how much they want to farm or run maps.

3. Removing Surgeon's won't solve anything, and the idea that crit is even "OP" to begin with is part of that "power creep" myth people like to tout. It doesn't matter if it even is, because it doesn't effect you if someone else builds a certain way or not. What is bad for the game, however, is removing player options--especially those that impact builds. One of the core selling points of this game is player options and build customization. Do not seek to undermine this.

4. Trade in POE is probably the 2nd worst aspect of it, behind desync. Unlike desync, they could easily fix this issue and make the game far more palatable to a much larger player base without having to rely on shoddy 3rd party nonsense. Also, if security is so sacred that they won't fix desync, why isn't it a high enough priority to have in-game trade instead of trusting 3rd party software? Interesting conflict of interest there, isn't it?

Again, agree or don't (I know which you'll pick), but acting like problems don't exist in the game just because you want to preserve the status quo only serves to devalue the weight of your own arguments.

---

The point here is that every time someone asks for a change or points out a flaw in the game, the same 5 or 6 people come in IMMEDIATELY before anyone else and say, "No, it's fine. The game is perfect. Don't change anything ever." in not quite those words.

It's better for GGG to actually examine the issues--even taking the arguments from each side into consideration--and decide what they want to do.

"

1. I know that desync isn't going anywhere any time soon, but I can deal with a few cheater (the "rampant cheating" argument is completely overblown) in favor of a more stable, solid game play experience.

You very well know its not a "few" in addition this isn't something GGG could just flip a switch on if they wanted to. They'd have to rewrite the code to do this, something taking away from developing the game that the rest of the (non complaining) players are enjoying. We saw number of almost 4 percent cheaters from the last ban, that's already too high, lets not give anymore room to grow by trusting the client. Honestly, if you don't like the model of trusting the server only and action prediction and are "heavily" affected by desync to where its unfun, then don't play. Don't press the issue and ruin the game for the rest of us because of YOUR issues.

"

2. It should never take months to get to 100--or at least not due to losing exp. It shouldn't be "free" either (which in true-to-form style, you naysayers keep exaggerating the "consequences"), but should be a simple matter of how much they want to farm or run maps.

It should take LONGER to get to level 100. However, it can be done in a matter of weeks (in no life situations). GGG specifically stated you should be able to work on developing a character for years if you wanted, however even this technically isn't true as once you settle on a build and get mirrored or high value unqiues in every slot you won't find improvements and if your level 100 you got nothing else to do to improve that character.

Builds should start being successful around level 85, this is where the penalty starts to hurt, but it REALLY hurts 90+. Getting to level 100 is not a goal the majority of players should even aim for, much like uber atziri, they require a certain playstyle, dedication and somewhat build in order to do them. This game doesn't give you anything for reaching "max" level, nothing no special reward no free exalts, nothing.

"

3. Removing Surgeon's won't solve anything, and the idea that crit is even "OP" to begin with is part of that "power creep" myth people like to tout. It doesn't matter if it even is, because it doesn't effect you if someone else builds a certain way or not. What is bad for the game, however, is removing player options--especially those that impact builds. One of the core selling points of this game is player options and build customization. Do not seek to undermine this.

I agree with this, funny you mention removing options here because an AH would remove the option (essentially) of players doing regular trades (like current system) why would you bother to spend time talking to players about trading when you can just search an AH select it and automatically get it.

"

4. Trade in POE is probably the 2nd worst aspect of it, behind desync. Unlike desync, they could easily fix this issue and make the game far more palatable to a much larger player base without having to rely on shoddy 3rd party nonsense. Also, if security is so sacred that they won't fix desync, why isn't it a high enough priority to have in-game trade instead of trusting 3rd party software? Interesting conflict of interest there, isn't it?

Actually I see where you think your onto something with twisting this around, but GGG figured out long ago that the system is secured as both the searching tool AND the listing tool ultimately uses THE OFFICIAL FORUMS to facilitate the middleground. You could, if you wanted to not use procurment or use the session ID method to pull your items in. There is another listing program, but can't think of the name right now. GGG would have came up with something if 3rd party did not, however 3rd party did and it works as well as it should. Its a perfect balance of automation (like searching, listing, ect) without the cheapened experience of automatic facilitation of trading.

Trading isn't bad, trading is fine. Lazy players suffer from he current system, those who take time to write up something like this could have listed, with b\o every single item that they have to sell, instead they complain on here.

"

Again, agree or don't (I know which you'll pick), but acting like problems don't exist in the game just because you want to preserve the status quo only serves to devalue the weight of your own arguments.

Status quo on a few things mean that my arguments for anything is worth nothing? Quite a few things GGG can do better, but they don't have anything to do with this thread or any of these previous things. I want GGG to change somethings, but not these "major" issues that people are finding with the game, as these ones also come with the largest DOWNSIDES.

"

The point here is that every time someone asks for a change or points out a flaw in the game, the same 5 or 6 people come in IMMEDIATELY before anyone else and say, "No, it's fine. The game is perfect. Don't change anything ever." in not quite those words.

Check the threads again, people put down MAJOR changes that have large downsides, small things that don't come with a huge downside get agreed with.

"

It's better for GGG to actually examine the issues--even taking the arguments from each side into consideration--and decide what they want to do.

We saw that they read the recent grandmasters map feedback threads, they didn't acknowledge if one view was more in line with what they were expecting or not, but they occasionally do acknowledge threads.

They won't respond to every thread, nor will they likely respond to ANY desync thread, as they have a dev manefisto specifically on the subject.

1. They sent out a warning to almost 4000 people using maphack how many people do you honestly think are playing? That's a big chunk, of real players, not even bots. It's in another language or I'd find the link to them banning 30k (!) bots/hackers/TOS violations/whatever exact on garena. If you played D2 you understand how out of control it gets.

2. Why shouldn't it take months to get to 100? IIRC it took months to get to 99 in LoD and I've heard it was impossible to get 99 in classic w/o botting. Also are you saying people should just be able to take whatever build, regardless of how ineffective it is to 100 if they are willing to put in the time? This game is built around variety, the death penalty allows a goal with this of keeping this build alive rather than doing the obvious of taking only DPS.

3. I'm not going back to read it, but how the fuck did this topic get onto surgeon flasks? I thought goetz was just pointing that out as something that if GGG listened to all feedback it would be one of the things changed. To your points, as most builds would be better crit rather than non-crit there's an obvious problem. There's a reason why soultaker has dropped from 60-80 ex range down to 4 while daggers only rise in value. I don't have a graceful solution to the crit issue, but if nerfing crit multi a half dozen times doesn't make you think even GGG sees it as a problem you aren't paying attention.

4. I haven't flushed out my problems with an AH exactly yet. It's mostly a violent rejection of what D3 had as it's the very reason I play POE and AH was one of the major reasons I hated D3. It trivialize any drop I got and made the game so dull. Of the 100ish friends only 3-4 are irl friends, the rest are from trading or CB global chat. Trading is one of the few ways to really make friends in this game. Also I'm not sure what your 3rd party implications are. Really poe.trade just sharing information, it doesn't take or give anything and I'm not sure how anything negative could come from it. Worse I see is something like what happen to poeex, being bought up by an RMT website and used to market themself. Which then the community just moves onto something else like it did with poeex.

5. (your point about us "white knighting" the game basically) I have given more thought out, brutal and exhaustive criticism than you probably could ever match. I probably have 10-20 pages of OPs (ignoring relies in the threads) of trying to rework duelist back in CB. I had a 9 page feedback which ripped many problems wide open. Also I'm alpha and I take that role seriously, I'm not a yes man. I take on fights that actually attempt to improve the game, not fight battles that have been going on for years thinking my opinion will suddenly cause action.

From my experiences with GGG, if a thread gets transaction they do take a look at it and talk it over. But put yourself in their shoes, if you hear the same shit rehashed over and over with no new perspective how seriously are you going to consider the issue? Desync is the best example, how many times do they have to explain before people will just stop screaming "fix it"?

Also I spend most of my time disagree on these forums because I don't want the vocal minority to be the only voice. This forum usually ends up being people coming in the revolving door who don't enjoy the game, whether it's not their genre, they didn't plan on playing long, they want something like D3 i.e. more casual friendly, they give their feedback in that context demanding changes, quit then never return. If GGG listens to this feedback they ruin the game for the people who love it, like myself and design it around people who never planned to stick around in the first place. If you watch these forums long enough you'll notice the same exact arguments but always a different user. Most of the regulars in fact are us "white knights."

So my objective usually ends up just being devil's advocate, arguing against the topic even if I don't care about it. Honestly, I'm not overly attached to the death penalty. I think death should be punished, I don't know of a better solution, one that's more graceful, and this one seems to be perfect for the mindset GGG wants their players to have, being hardcore players themselves. If you notice when they nerfed it, I didn't comment for or against, I really didn't care. Decision was made, I assume GGG thought hard on it then just went with what they thought was best.

It's their game, I always trust they know what they are doing and that things are turning out how they want them too. I'd just prefer if they kept to their philosophies rather than being turned by people who probably won't be sticking around anyways.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

2. It should never take months to get to 100--or at least not due to losing exp. It shouldn't be "free" either (which in true-to-form style, you naysayers keep exaggerating the "consequences"), but should be a simple matter of how much they want to farm or run maps.

It should take LONGER to get to level 100. However, it can be done in a matter of weeks (in no life situations). GGG specifically stated you should be able to work on developing a character for years if you wanted, however even this technically isn't true as once you settle on a build and get mirrored or high value unqiues in every slot you won't find improvements and if your level 100 you got nothing else to do to improve that character.

Builds should start being successful around level 85, this is where the penalty starts to hurt, but it REALLY hurts 90+. Getting to level 100 is not a goal the majority of players should even aim for, much like uber atziri, they require a certain playstyle, dedication and somewhat build in order to do them. This game doesn't give you anything for reaching "max" level, nothing no special reward no free exalts, nothing.

Actually, I belong on the other side of this "Uber Atziri Theory". See, in my opinion, getting to level 100 should be the main goal for everyone in this game. This is because ANYbody can get to 100. All you need is some friends, and a lot of time, and some currency for maps.

Unlike Uber Atziri, who isn't even a goal anymore because its either you use a build specifically made for uber atziri or you get raped.

Leveling to 100 is actually an achievable target for can I say 70% of the builds out there? Maybe 85%.

Let me read the rest of your post and ill reply on that after

"

Moosifer wrote:

3. I'm not going back to read it, but how the fuck did this topic get onto surgeon flasks? I thought goetz was just pointing that out as something that if GGG listened to all feedback it would be one of the things changed. To your points, as most builds would be better crit rather than non-crit there's an obvious problem. There's a reason why soultaker has dropped from 60-80 ex range down to 4 while daggers only rise in value. I don't have a graceful solution to the crit issue, but if nerfing crit multi a half dozen times doesn't make you think even GGG sees it as a problem you aren't paying attention.

As a beloved Legacy Soul Taker user, I believe the reason behind the drop in soul taker pricing was because GGG kept releasing patches that reduced mana costs of every skill. So really, people aren't depending on a soul taker to attack with no mana, they simply use other weapons and figure out how to get the little bit of mana leech you do need

"

levy42088 wrote:

"

Moosifer wrote:

3. I'm not going back to read it, but how the fuck did this topic get onto surgeon flasks? I thought goetz was just pointing that out as something that if GGG listened to all feedback it would be one of the things changed. To your points, as most builds would be better crit rather than non-crit there's an obvious problem. There's a reason why soultaker has dropped from 60-80 ex range down to 4 while daggers only rise in value. I don't have a graceful solution to the crit issue, but if nerfing crit multi a half dozen times doesn't make you think even GGG sees it as a problem you aren't paying attention.

As a beloved Legacy Soul Taker user, I believe the reason behind the drop in soul taker pricing was because GGG kept releasing patches that reduced mana costs of every skill. So really, people aren't depending on a soul taker to attack with no mana, they simply use other weapons and figure out how to get the little bit of mana leech you do need

Yeah soul taker has WAY more to do with the unique property of it rather then the lack of crit\damage.

I'm just here to agree. The death penalty really has to go.

So, basically, there should be some sort of penalty, sure. But the exp penalty really is to harsh.
Dying in higher levels really means a timelost of hours if not even days of grinding.

There is not a single reason why the death penalty has to be so harsh.
If you want a real penalty, play hardcore leagues.
You can't even "exploit" the game, when the death penalty is gone. Since you've got
just a limited amount of portals on maps, you still can't play completely brainless.

The thing is... there are plenty of things that can kill you really really fast, without
making own mistakes. Desync is just one of them.

Yeah... I don't know... I think PoE would be way more fun if the frustrating death penalty
would be gone. Especially on Standart/Softcore leagues there shouldnt be such a penalty!