[2.0.0] Kaom's Legacy : How to Cyclone - (30C Atziri Build - Indepth Guide for Beginners)

Ok, it took me few days to analyse your build. I was doing it, because I'm for around 2 years a die-hard cycloner aswell and was looking for fresh ideas etc., you know what I mean.

I hope you dont get me wrong, but here some criticim, just to make your build more precise and better.

1. Your build and the described mechanic "movement > aps" refers to a 2H cyclone build only. Please indicate it in the title of your guide, i.e. "How to 2H cyclone". Otherwise it could lead to some serious confusion, if a new player tries to go dual wield with ur build.

2. There are some more cyclone builds and your build is just one of many pretty end-game viable cyclone builds (facebreaker, jedi-master, 1h blocker etc.). So it is not correct to state "my perspective of how to use Cyclone optimally", because your build is not automatically and in any case "optimal". It would be just fair, to write something like "my way to use cyclone in a 2H setup". Again, your build deserves attention in any case, but it is just one of many good cyclone-builds.

3. Now the most important part. It is important to involve in the calculation, how many hits cyclone produces, if increasing APS stepwise. Sure, if you dont skill APS and use the slowest weapon, then MS > APS. But, what happens, if you use a 2H wep with 1.5 APS and gain some APS increase from equip/tree to obtain, lets say, twice as much APS as you have with your current setup?
I am trying to say, that it matters a lot, how many hits cyclone produces between two casts. Every experienced cycloner knows very well, that movement speed influences the effectiveness of how cyclones works. But you have to go a bit deeper in the mechanics and calculate exactly, what optimal balance between MS and APS must be aimed to get an effective setup.
4 casts per second with 2 ticks per cast is < than 4 casts per second and 3 ticks per cast

4. You and most other cycloners very seriuosly underestimate the importance of AOE in the cyclone build. In most cases higher AOE leads to more dps. In other words, it matters a lot, when you are able to hit the target with your cyclone. So 20k low aoe cyclone does effectively lower damage than 15k large aoe cyclone.

Again, please let us be constructive, do not feel offended by my criticism, it is a help, nothing else!

"

bersi23 wrote:

Ok, it took me few days to analyse your build. I was doing it, because I'm for around 2 years a die-hard cycloner aswell and was looking for fresh ideas etc., you know what I mean.

I hope you dont get me wrong, but here some criticim, just to make your build more precise and better.

1. Your build and the described mechanic "movement > aps" refers to a 2H cyclone build only. Please indicate it in the title of your guide, i.e. "How to 2H cyclone". Otherwise it could lead to some serious confusion, if a new player tries to go dual wield with ur build.

2. There are some more cyclone builds and your build is just one of many pretty end-game viable cyclone builds (facebreaker, jedi-master, 1h blocker etc.). So it is not correct to state "my perspective of how to use Cyclone optimally", because your build is not automatically and in any case "optimal". It would be just fair, to write something like "my way to use cyclone in a 2H setup". Again, your build deserves attention in any case, but it is just one of many good cyclone-builds.

3. Now the most important part. It is important to involve in the calculation, how many hits cyclone produces, if increasing APS stepwise. Sure, if you dont skill APS and use the slowest weapon, then MS > APS. But, what happens, if you use a 2H wep with 1.5 APS and gain some APS increase from equip/tree to obtain, lets say, twice as much APS as you have with your current setup?
I am trying to say, that it matters a lot, how many hits cyclone produces between two casts. Every experienced cycloner knows very well, that movement speed influences the effectiveness of how cyclones works. But you have to go a bit deeper in the mechanics and calculate exactly, what optimal balance between MS and APS must be aimed to get an effective setup.
4 casts per second with 2 ticks per cast is < than 4 casts per second and 3 ticks per cast

4. You and most other cycloners very seriuosly underestimate the importance of AOE in the cyclone build. In most cases higher AOE leads to more dps. In other words, it matters a lot, when you are able to hit the target with your cyclone. So 20k low aoe cyclone does effectively lower damage than 15k large aoe cyclone.

Again, please let us be constructive, do not feel offended by my criticism, it is a help, nothing else!

nice critis and well written!

but as a cyclone noob why is 2h cyclone so different than facebreaker cyclone or 1 hand cyclone?
Its the same skill and we can use the mechanics of movement speed to all forms of cyclone... or am i wrong?

"

hitreza wrote:

nice critis and well written!

but as a cyclone noob why is 2h cyclone so different than facebreaker cyclone or 1 hand cyclone?
Its the same skill and we can use the mechanics of movement speed to all forms of cyclone... or am i wrong?

Thanx, I've tried to be as constructive as possible.

The answer to your question is pretty clear: 2h cyclone differs from 1h/dual wield in its speed. If your APS is low, you can mainly focus on, I'll name it so, "abuse" of the new cyclone's mechanic, where cyclone first procs a "free" aoe and then starts to spin.

But if you use very fast weapons, especially in case of dual wielding 2x 1h, the dps gain coming from "normal" attacks between two "casts" is noticeable higher, than it would be if droping aps and focusing on as high as possible movement speed.

Again: It is wrong, to see this matter in the black&white manner. It is the best, as anywhere in our life, to find a "golden middle", between MS and APS.

"

bersi23 wrote:

"

hitreza wrote:

nice critis and well written!

but as a cyclone noob why is 2h cyclone so different than facebreaker cyclone or 1 hand cyclone?
Its the same skill and we can use the mechanics of movement speed to all forms of cyclone... or am i wrong?

Thanx, I've tried to be as constructive as possible.

The answer to your question is pretty clear: 2h cyclone differs from 1h/dual wield in its speed. If your APS is low, you can mainly focus on, I'll name it so, "abuse" of the new cyclone's mechanic, where cyclone first procs a "free" aoe and then starts to spin.

But if you use very fast weapons, especially in case of dual wielding 2x 1h, the dps gain coming from "normal" attacks between two "casts" is noticeable higher, than it would be if droping aps and focusing on as high as possible movement speed.

Again: It is wrong, to see this matter in the black&white manner. It is the best, as anywhere in our life, to find a "golden middle", between MS and APS.

In which category does Facebreaker Cyclone fall? Would facebreaker cyclone benefit from AS or MS?

Tx again for your insight.

"

hitreza wrote:

In which category does Facebreaker Cyclone fall? Would facebreaker cyclone benefit from AS or MS?

Tx again for your insight.

Sorry, if I sound a bit smart-alecky, but PoE is a pretty complex game, if you start to analyse mechanics of skill synergies.
It is not recommended, to see it in the mentioned "black&white" manner. Please try to understand the coherences described above.

"

bersi23 wrote:

Ok, it took me few days to analyse your build. I was doing it, because I'm for around 2 years a die-hard cycloner aswell and was looking for fresh ideas etc., you know what I mean.

I hope you dont get me wrong, but here some criticim, just to make your build more precise and better.

1. Your build and the described mechanic "movement > aps" refers to a 2H cyclone build only. Please indicate it in the title of your guide, i.e. "How to 2H cyclone". Otherwise it could lead to some serious confusion, if a new player tries to go dual wield with ur build.

Fair enough. Point given that cyclone base purely on MS only really starts to shine with low AS high base dmg weapons. You can use 2 Gavels / Reaver Axes when dualwield e.g. with this build (although I'd recomend AS over MS only on 1h and dualwield for several reasons). Facebreakers are a whole new story, but the low base AS of unarmed playes into a MS/recast focused playstyle.

Also, a buildguide is there to guide (duh!). I clearly an explecitly explained throughout the guide why 2h low AS high base weapons are optimal. If anyone reads this guide thouroughly they understand how to build around that concept itemwise. (at least at the core).

"

bersi23 wrote:

2. There are some more cyclone builds and your build is just one of many pretty end-game viable cyclone builds (facebreaker, jedi-master, 1h blocker etc.). So it is not correct to state "my perspective of how to use Cyclone optimally", because your build is not automatically and in any case "optimal". It would be just fair, to write something like "my way to use cyclone in a 2H setup". Again, your build deserves attention in any case, but it is just one of many good cyclone-builds.

Bolded the important part. It is my perspective, my opinion. I played several cyclone builds (ele,2h, dualwield, facebreaker) and tried all with AS and MS/recast. Some yielded better experience and output with AS, some with MS/recast.

In the end, I found MS/recast more fun, more fluid and more effective to play. Its from my perspective, in my opinion, for me optimal. I don't claim it to be the best (DPS/Clearspeed/Budged), I just explain in this guide WHY I feel this way.

"

bersi23 wrote:

3. Now the most important part. It is important to involve in the calculation, how many hits cyclone produces, if increasing APS stepwise. Sure, if you dont skill APS and use the slowest weapon, then MS > APS. But, what happens, if you use a 2H wep with 1.5 APS and gain some APS increase from equip/tree to obtain, lets say, twice as much APS as you have with your current setup?
I am trying to say, that it matters a lot, how many hits cyclone produces between two casts. Every experienced cycloner knows very well, that movement speed influences the effectiveness of how cyclones works. But you have to go a bit deeper in the mechanics and calculate exactly, what optimal balance between MS and APS must be aimed to get an effective setup.
4 casts per second with 2 ticks per cast is < than 4 casts per second and 3 ticks per cast

A 1.5 AS base weapon has less base damage. Also, the highest base AS is 1.35 on a Reaver Sword.
Compare bases:
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Karui_Chopper

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Reaver_Sword


The Karui's minimal damage is that of the Reavers maximum damage possible, with the overall dps being 18 more.

Now with all the mods on a good weapon and all my multipliers on my support gems this magnifies onto HUGE differences on a single hit. (since im on my laptop atm, I cant post a screenshot, will add tomorrow).

Next thing. If I cast cyclone 4 times per second (as explained in the guide), I have an SELFMADE AS of 0.25 (4 attacks per second), where my characterpage says my cyclone swings every 0,83 sec (1,2 attacks per second, which is through my 1 base and some AS on the tree I could not pass up upon).

Since cylone is hitting twice per second, I'd need to get to 0,5 attack time on paper, which is 2.0 attacks/s.COULD BE doable with FA or some AS on tree for sure even for a Karui (esp with attspd roll as suffix).

BUT REMEBER: 4 casts /sec is my base at 50 MS. with quicksilver on, I get up to 8 casts per sec, which would need 0.25 attacktime (4 att/sec), which is not doable with attspd on a karui (and even hard on a reaver sword). Dont forget the less attspd multi on cyclone. this whole scenario did not include the 30% less AS multi on it!!!.

Also next missconception is that you do your 2nd swing per cast. You don't. effectivly, cyclone hits 2 times per spin, which means it effectivly doubles your AS on it. IF YOU PLAY AS!

I do NEVER even hit my 2nd cyclone spin. I DO THE FIRST HIT very fast, very often (4-8 times per second as explained in the guide), because I recast cyclone faster than the 2nd hit occuring. That is where I get my DPS out of this method. IDC when the 2nd hit occurs, when I can line up 1st Hits very fast.

Which is why I dont need AS.

I dont need the 2nd hit to occur faster, since I dont use it anyways.

I only use the first, instant hit. very often.

"

bersi23 wrote:

4. You and most other cycloners very seriuosly underestimate the importance of AOE in the cyclone build. In most cases higher AOE leads to more dps. In other words, it matters a lot, when you are able to hit the target with your cyclone. So 20k low aoe cyclone does effectively lower damage than 15k large aoe cyclone.

Please re-read the skillgem section. I explicitly put in inc aoe be4 conc eff. there.

Allthough I will add another point of yours into the skillgem/gearing section, which is AOE. It is the most important thing for cyclone, you are 1000% right. I thought I added a a point to rare axes that +2 weaponrange from vagan is the most important suffix mod on our weapons.

Will add that.

Hey, great guide im currently following it!

But i got a question, since im using 8- mana cost blue ring atm, and i'm at merciless first arc, i got 2,9k hp, 2,5k armor, all resist over 50%, 150 life reg per sec. I'm currently lvl 56 and i will use kaoms at 58. at that lvl should i start using blood magic with cyclone and other gem. But the question is should i then get new both ring + neck with good stats so i can skip the 8- mana cost blue ring and neck?

"

Tecken1407 wrote:

Hey, great guide im currently following it!

But i got a question, since im using 8- mana cost blue ring atm, and i'm at merciless first arc, i got 2,9k hp, 2,5k armor, all resist over 50%, 150 life reg per sec. I'm currently lvl 56 and i will use kaoms at 58. at that lvl should i start using blood magic with cyclone and other gem. But the question is should i then get new both ring + neck with good stats so i can skip the 8- mana cost blue ring and neck?

If you go with BM, the elreon rings and ammies will not do much without investment into the tree, so I suggest to change the elreon jewelry to rare ones.

Very nice guide, especially for new players. Thanks a lot.

Hey, this is what im using right now as lvl 61 with 3,2k hp. Should i still use the beginner build or move other to other one ?