1.350 million dps tooltip [2.3] The Dashing Duelist: ~ DW Crit Sword Build - Lacerate / Dual Strike

Hi i am currently lvling a char with this build in mind in tempest i was wondering why not take phase acro since you rely in invasion anyway instead of stacking so many frenzy charges, also cleave sucks hard after early game any alternatives in mind, i also don't really like herbalism i think it's kind of a waste blood siphon looks better to me, Great general concept by the way thank you.

i really really like the idea of this build, but after testing for many many hours, and 30 regret orbs later, i have come to the conclusion that, from a purely PvE perspective whatever cleave can do, cyclone reave and ice crash can do better. Im sorry, its just my opinion, and judging by the number of people who use cleave vs cyclone/reave/ice crash, i think many others agree with me too. And its really GGG's fault for not balancing the skills adequately.

4 reasons why: (will leave out ice crash since it involves a different skill tree)

1) Clear speed. Cyclone/Reave with the exact same skill tree just clears so much faster than cleave. Cleave does 110% of base damage, 132% when dual wielding (60% per weapon), and forces you to get very near the enemy. Compared to reave, which is 100% effectiveness but has so much bigger range, the clear speed really doesn't compare. Having more range also means you dont have to get so near to enemies, so you end up with more offensive auras/passive points anyway, it really isn't surprising that reave > cleave even on tooltip dps. And then... there is cyclone. That beast makes you immune to stun/freeze and attacks so much faster as well...

2) Fake dual wielding. With the new 20% more physical attack speed for dual wielding, everybody now loves dual wielding, except they are not. Having a weapon that cannot use your attack is now the best way to maximize dps (reave with sword + axe) So effectively unless you have 2 identical weapons, your dps is actually lower than using just one with another stat stick. This is bad design at its finest. Real dual wielding like cleave in PoE is being screwed by GGG at its current state.

3) The 2.0 mana changes. Unless you want to be chucking mana pots, you now need a lot of mana leech AND mana regen (2.0 mana leech only cannot sustain) for any melee non soul taker build. This is where cyclone comes in.
With the same skill tree, the best way to maximize dps for:
Cleave: 6L cleave-multistrike-faster attacks-melee phys-added fire-crit multi
Cyclone: 5L Cylone-faster attacks-melee phys-added fire-crit multi
(Cyclone does not work with multistrike)
This means it opens up the final gem slot for blood magic, allowing you to reserve 100% mana and forget about mana problems forever.
With Reave, you only attack with 1 sword, opening up the other hand for a soul taker axe. This allows you to ignore mana altogether as well.

Cyclone and reave will probably suck at PvP, but purely PvE wise there's just no reason to use cleave now. Even in PvP i imagine dual strike>cleave. And its sad because cleave has always been my favourite skill. Of course, you're free to use whatever you like, but unless GGG fix the above issues i won't be touching cleave with a 10 inch pole :)

EDIT: The new 2.0 50% mana reserved auras just makes it that much more tempting to run 2 auras and go blood magic cyclone. Everything in 2.0 points to cyclone/reave when PvE. Its not fair

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lordishgr wrote:

Hi i am currently lvling a char with this build in mind in tempest i was wondering why not take phase acro since you rely in invasion anyway instead of stacking so many frenzy charges, also cleave sucks hard after early game any alternatives in mind, i also don't really like herbalism i think it's kind of a waste blood siphon looks better to me, Great general concept by the way thank you.

If you're running this in Tempest, I would stick with armor/evasion and Iron Reflexes for PvE, Acrobatics and Phase Acrobatics are great, but if you get hit, it fucking hurts. In fact, you may want to take some points to detour to Unwavering Stance or use Kaom's Roots boots for the same effect. Also, for the life of me, I can't find Blood Siphon on the tree, but if you like it, go for it.

Quote from Whitified (rest in spoiler):

"i really really like the idea of this build, but after testing for many many hours, and 30 regret orbs later, i have come to the conclusion that, from a purely PvE perspective whatever cleave can do, cyclone reave and ice crash can do better. Im sorry, its just my opinion, and judging by the number of people who use cleave vs cyclone/reave/ice crash, i think many others agree with me too. And its really GGG's fault for not balancing the skills adequately.

4 reasons why: (will leave out ice crash since it involves a different skill tree)



You make some great points, and I have considered and lamented each of them patch after patch. Like I said earlier, if you love cyclone, use it. Dual Strike is by and far the best for PvP, out of the skills we've discussed, but is only used for PvP ever.

Speaking from purely PvE perspective now, Cleave to me is much faster, because you can hit 3 times in a split second, then whirl through enemies while they're still swinging at you to where you were. Cyclone to me, feels much more clunky and slow, you have to move in a straight line, you have to travel to that point, and complete the whole action before you can do something else. Also, Cyclone is weird to keybind, it doesn't work as well on the left mouse button, but I know lots of people have that button just for move. Maybe I could like Cyclone with more practice. Reave is much more tempting, I tried it very briefly when if first came out, and found the stacks were hard to maintain, but I don't think I had a great build or character at the time, so I should give that another shot. Reave is green, which means it is easy to swap out for Dual Strike for PvP, instead of having 2 chests like I did in Torment, one GRRRR for Cleave, one GGRRR for DS. I will def try Reave today.

I am also aware of the DW stat stick builds right now, specifically with Doryani's sceptre thing, and Soul Taker. But I am cheap as hell, and crazy builds with uniques like that have always been a bit out of reach. The great thing about this build is that it is clean physical damage, with no expensive uniques, except Rat's Nest and/or Maligaro's. This build has been around since Nov 2013 and continues to prosper and inspire other builds.

I am 74 now in Warbands, leveling slowly, hit me up for meeps!

Edit: Tried Reave in some maps, and it is so much better than I expected, thanks for bringing it to my attention again. Higher range, but similar damage to Cleave.

some questions for you:
1) do you survive reflect/thornflesh since you go dodge instead of armour?
2) is it better to get doryanis catalyst rather than dual wield swords? what other options are there for the offhand?
3) how do you sustain your mana since you didn't pick up nodes like spirit void? (assuming you run something like grace/hatred+herald of ash)
4) cleave vs reave thoughts?
5) how do you generate power charges? (mightve missed it somewhere)
6) why do you prefer dodging over having armour? if you get hit once with a phys attack thatll nearly one shot you would it not? how does that compare to a hybrid build with iron reflexes?
7) lastly, can you post pictures of your stats?

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zantsurai wrote:

some questions for you:
1) do you survive reflect/thornflesh since you go dodge instead of armour?

If you attack a phys ref with this build, you will be lucky to not die, even with just Rat's Nest, be fucking careful.


2) is it better to get doryanis catalyst rather than dual wield swords? what other options are there for the offhand?

Never tried Doryani's myself, but there are some good builds with it, expensive as shit though. Soul taker is the other option, but also expensive.

3) how do you sustain your mana since you didn't pick up nodes like spirit void? (assuming you run something like grace/hatred+herald of ash)

I have a .35% mana leech ring that is all the mana leech I need to sustain.

4) cleave vs reave thoughts?

I just recently tried reave and I really enjoy it. Almost enough to change the build name, but we'll see. Both are effected by Concentrated Effect and have solid range and single target damage. The appeal of Reave is that you don't need to recolor your chest when you want to PvP and swap for Dual Strike.

5) how do you generate power charges? (mightve missed it somewhere)

I have been using Assassin's Mark with CWDT this league, works pretty well, auto applied when you need to kill something quickly, if you have something better, please let me know.


6) why do you prefer dodging over having armour? if you get hit once with a phys attack thatll nearly one shot you would it not? how does that compare to a hybrid build with iron reflexes?

40% avoidance is great for PvP, but my PvE build does use Iron Reflexes. I prefer Acrobatics all around just so I never need to respec.

7) lastly, can you post pictures of your stats?

Here is a shitty picture of my Offensive stats in Standard as I go into PvP:


And here is my defensive stats for PvP:



My standard character is mainly for testing at this point. I will upload neato stats my my newest character in Warbands once I get him leveled up.

I hope this helps!

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roguemjb wrote:

"

zantsurai wrote:

5) how do you generate power charges? (mightve missed it somewhere)

I have been using Assassin's Mark with CWDT this league, works pretty well, auto applied when you need to kill something quickly, if you have something better, please let me know.


6) why do you prefer dodging over having armour? if you get hit once with a phys attack thatll nearly one shot you would it not? how does that compare to a hybrid build with iron reflexes?

40% avoidance is great for PvP, but my PvE build does use Iron Reflexes. I prefer Acrobatics all around just so I never need to respec.

5) ive seen people using power charge on crit instead of added fire damage (ex 6link for reave: reave-melee phys-increased aoe-faster attacks-multistrike-power charge on crit) but i dont know if its worth the dps tradeoff (havent tested myself)

6) not sure if i read this right but are you saying that for pve you run iron reflexes as well as acrobatics? if so, is that a big game changer (as in does that boost your survivability substantially?) (also if you would do this, would you go as far as getting phase acrobatics as well?)

edit: forgot to ask but what is flicker strike for? you already have whirling blades for mobility dont you?

"

roguemjb wrote:

Edit: Tried Reave in some maps, and it is so much better than I expected, thanks for bringing it to my attention again. Higher range, but similar damage to Cleave.

Sigh... this is what i didn't want to hear.
Reave means that whatever 2 swords can do, with 1 sword + axe or mace can do better. Even if the axe is sh!t and has only 2 to 3 resists, its still better than 2 swords because you alternate weapons.
The only advantage i can think of with 2 swords is the implicit crit multi on rapiers.

Im a huge dual wield fan but real dual wielding in PoE PvE is dead.
Maybe RT cleave axes or 2 swords crit cyclone (what im running now, boring as hell)

Blame GGG

"

whitified wrote:

"

roguemjb wrote:

Edit: Tried Reave in some maps, and it is so much better than I expected, thanks for bringing it to my attention again. Higher range, but similar damage to Cleave.

Sigh... this is what i didn't want to hear.
Reave means that whatever 2 swords can do, with 1 sword + axe or mace can do better. Even if the axe is sh!t and has only 2 to 3 resists, its still better than 2 swords because you alternate weapons.
The only advantage i can think of with 2 swords is the implicit crit multi on rapiers.

Im a huge dual wield fan but real dual wielding in PoE PvE is dead.
Maybe RT cleave axes or 2 swords crit cyclone (what im running now, boring as hell)

Blame GGG

Hmmm, the tooltip dps seems to be better on Cleave no matter what is in the other hand, so how is Reave better? Besides the ability to use Soul Taker as a stat stick?

Anyway, Reave is a nice change of pace for the moment, but Dual Strike is far and beyond best for single target, which this build is geared towards.

"

zantsurai wrote:

5) ive seen people using power charge on crit instead of added fire damage (ex 6link for reave: reave-melee phys-increased aoe-faster attacks-multistrike-power charge on crit) but i dont know if its worth the dps tradeoff (havent tested myself)

6) not sure if i read this right but are you saying that for pve you run iron reflexes as well as acrobatics? if so, is that a big game changer (as in does that boost your survivability substantially?) (also if you would do this, would you go as far as getting phase acrobatics as well?)

edit: forgot to ask but what is flicker strike for? you already have whirling blades for mobility dont you?

Inc Crit Damage will still be better than PCoC, but feel free to test. Best way imo is to generate charges another way and use a better damage gem.

No, I don't run Acrobatics with Iron Reflexes, it's one or the other. Iron Reflexes is for straight PvE builds.