Penetration gems mess up balance between ele/physical

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Mark_GGG wrote:

Penetration does not affect the cap. But it's a modification to resistances applied at the point of damage, after resistances are calculated (including the cap).
Your resistance is a value from -infinity up to the cap. You cannot have resistance higher than the cap. The penetration affects this resistance value at the point damage is applied.


If you have 75% resistance to fire because the cap is pulling you down from some higher value, you still have 75% fire resistance, and that's what penetration is a modification to (for that specific damage)

So my understand is if you had 100% fire resist if there was no cap at 75%, fire pen removes 40%, even though you have 100% fire resist you'd have 35% because of the cap? This is why zaka gets the sense it's lowering the max then?

Also means there's no way to fight this in PVP as the assumption to counter it would be get your resists way over cap using stuff like purity.

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anubite wrote:

Oh and it's also worth pointing out that physical damage already has built-in penetration. The armor formula reduces less damage the more damage you do. There's also the accuracy mechanic for 'penetrating' evasion.

But physical damage is heavy in the southeastern corner of the tree which is also low in crit. Also you can't get 3 flat physical damage mods on each piece of jewelry combined with % increases for those 3 physical damage mods. Elemental damage comes from way more sources and scales much higher also has damage CCs like burning and shock while physical has knockback and stun. I guess you could count puncture but it isn't as common and easy to get in builds the same way that shock/burning are.

The only balance between the two was resists and my point stands, these new supports really fuck that balance up.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

Penetration does not affect the cap. But it's a modification to resistances applied at the point of damage, after resistances are calculated (including the cap).
Your resistance is a value from -infinity up to the cap. You cannot have resistance higher than the cap. The penetration affects this resistance value at the point damage is applied.


If you have 75% resistance to fire because the cap is pulling you down from some higher value, you still have 75% fire resistance, and that's what penetration is a modification to (for that specific damage)

Which will do exactly the same damage as if it had lowered your max resists along with current resists.
And needs to change... players really need to have the option of stacking resists past the cap to counter penetration... with those mechanics penetration supports are just completely overpowered.

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taekvideo wrote:

Which will do exactly the same damage as if it had lowered your max resists along with current resists.
And needs to change... players really need to have the option of stacking resists past the cap to counter penetration... with those mechanics penetration supports are just completely overpowered.

I don't think overpowered is the right word. I think it's a rare example of bad design.

Maybe Pen gem's percentage should be reduce your resistance by an actual percentage instead of a flat amount ( 75% fire res reduced by 30% pen would equal 52.5% fire res still remaining).


Or maybe they should just take pen gems and pen auras out completely and go back to just ele weakness.

if you have curse removal, then you should only have to deal with the penetration gem by itself without the added curses. if they didn't have the penetration gems then people could make themselves immune to an element though the passive, quality resistance gem, shield, and a resistance bottle.

i know i wouldn't be able to kill certain curse immune monsters without that gem. i doubt i could kill a player who had curse removal/immunity bottles as well.

so they have to have the gem in the game in my opinion.

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Moosifer wrote:

Also means there's no way to fight this in PVP as the assumption to counter it would be get your resists way over cap using stuff like purity.

Dear God. This must be the end of days.... Moosifer talking about game items and PvP. Do my eyes deceive me?

On a less personal note. Resistance flasks make a big difference. This is actually how Mouze was able to counter me.

I tried to avoid it slurm but that's the real big issue with these supports.

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Moosifer wrote:

I tried to avoid it slurm but that's the real big issue with these supports.

Is there? What is the DPS with these gems in PvP against another DPS build that does not use penetration suppors (goes crit or whatever)?

Do spells with this support really become OP or are they just brought up to par with melee/ranged attacks?

zaka has done the numbers, I'm just going on some theory crafting I've done. Elemental scales higher than physical without the support, with it allows for double damage and procs that either do more damage or slow/immobilize. A pure ele users (spark/FP for example) would be dumb to PVP w/o it as it stacks with crit and those builds tend to have access to alot of crit anyways.

I found out the hard way that elemental builds are much stronger than pure physical. My ele bow build blew my physical build out of the water

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Moosifer wrote:

zaka has done the numbers, I'm just going on some theory crafting I've done. Elemental scales higher than physical without the support, with it allows for double damage and procs that either do more damage or slow/immobilize. A pure ele users (spark/FP for example) would be dumb to PVP w/o it as it stacks with crit and those builds tend to have access to alot of crit anyways.

Ok, so where are these numbers? Where are the calculations?

I know that traditionally elemental critical builds have been considered better but I am not sure how is this the fault of these support? Shouldn't we ask for the base problem to be solved first.

I run an Arc build that uses chance to shock on hit passives to stack shock debuffs on enemies and I don't have a single point into increased crit chance. I use this support and it makes my spell useful. Before when I was playing similar build with any spell (except Ice Spear or FP) my damage was always pretty pathetic. This is the first time my noncrit spell build feels good during play.