XP penalty and likely 1 portal is NOT going anywhere

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Z3RoNightMare#7140 wrote:

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Echothesis#7320 wrote:

It would've been negligible if GGG didn't drag penalties with it, pretending they have carefully balanced soulslike gameplay, not an RNG mess.

Indeed. I tried logic, but they can only reply with emotional gut feelings. Worse yet, it's that it's always only the players fault and game design can't be blamed. Considering how much PoE1 changed in favour of the players request, believing it will never do so in PoE2 is simply baffling.

"

Z3RoNightMare#7140 wrote:

Indeed. I tried logic, but they can only reply with emotional gut feelings. Worse yet, it's that it's always only the players fault and game design can't be blamed. Considering how much PoE1 changed in favour of the players request, believing it will never do so in PoE2 is simply baffling.

"

Z3RoNightMare#7140 wrote:

"

Echothesis#7320 wrote:

It would've been negligible if GGG didn't drag penalties with it, pretending they have carefully balanced soulslike gameplay, not an RNG mess.

Indeed. I tried logic, but they can only reply with emotional gut feelings. Worse yet, it's that it's always only the players fault and game design can't be blamed. Considering how much PoE1 changed in favour of the players request, believing it will never do so in PoE2 is simply baffling.

"

Z3RoNightMare#7140 wrote:

If every time something goes wrong, you just say 'It’s your fault,' you’re ignoring the broader issue of game design. Some players might not mind the high stakes, but for others, it’s a frustrating experience that could easily be addressed by tweaking how failure impacts the player’s progression.

It's not about 'blaming' players for not being perfect; it’s about creating an environment where failure is a learning opportunity, not just a setback that makes people feel like they're being punished for every minor mistake. So, when you say 'It’s your fault,' it’s almost like you're shifting the blame onto the player, without recognizing that the design itself can sometimes create a cycle of frustration rather than growth.

"

1453R#7804 wrote:

"

Z3RoNightMare#7140 wrote:

If every time something goes wrong, you just say 'It’s your fault,' you’re ignoring the broader issue of game design. Some players might not mind the high stakes, but for others, it’s a frustrating experience that could easily be addressed by tweaking how failure impacts the player’s progression.

It's not about 'blaming' players for not being perfect; it’s about creating an environment where failure is a learning opportunity, not just a setback that makes people feel like they're being punished for every minor mistake. So, when you say 'It’s your fault,' it’s almost like you're shifting the blame onto the player, without recognizing that the design itself can sometimes create a cycle of frustration rather than growth.

And yet the number of peopole who complain about One Portal by saying "I am an Elite Golden God of gaming, I have LITERALLY NEVER died to anything in Path of Exile except bullshit instant one-shots Nostradamus couldn't see coming! I don't deserve to lose my map because of GGG's dogshit balance!" is far, far, far greater than anyone arguing your point of constant stress.

Anyone who makes such an argument is a bullshitting blowhard that has no business talking on the Internet. You (generic 'you the audience', not Z3ro specifically) are not that fucking guy. You know GOOD GODDAMN WELL what killed you, it was not an Instant Bullshit One-Shot, and arguing that your status as an Elite Golden God of Gaming needs respecting by the game design is horse hockey.

It honestly reminds me of something I remember one of the Japanese devs of Tekken saying, when the latest Tekken came out. Modern fighting games and other competitive games which pit a single player against another single player are way less popular than they used to be because modern gamers have been trained by high-profile team games to blame anyone but themselves for their failures. It's always "The Team's Fault" you lost in those games, never your own, but when you win it's clearly because you yourself performed amazingly. It's apparently a real thing in development now - players in games without a 'Team' to insulate their egos have to eat the blame for their losses themselves and modern players have decided they don't like the taste of it.

It's another reason why Soulslikes get memed on in the broader gaming community - a good Soulslike makes it agonizingly clear that when you go down it's your own bleedin' fault, and there's a whole generation of modern gamers that cannot tolerate the taste of their own failures. They will blame everything prior to acknowledging that they biffed it, and there's nothing you can do to stop them.

Give those people six portals and when they burn up an entire level, drop back down a level, and fail to clear their six-portal map they will blame Bad Mob Balance for the problem just as much as they blame Bad Mob Balance for their deaths in One Portal; they'll just lose way more than if the game had cut them off after a single biff. Failure will never be "a learning experience" for those players because they categorically refuse to learn.

Now, I take your point about constant stress. That is literally the first time I've ever seen a valid argument against One Portal; that some players are wound too tight by the tension of knowing a single biff can cost them their waystone and that tension bleeds much of the fun out of the game. That could use a solve, but again - blowing up the entire PoE2 endgame and replacing it wholesale with PoE1's vastly inferior endgame is not a proper solve. There needs to be stakes for failure, and six portals is basically the same as infinite portals. I honestly like Jonathan's idea of being able to expend an additional Waystone to retry the map with all its mechanics and rewards intact, but I also understand the issue with people using that to manipulatively double (or more) their juicing on every single map they run by deliberately dying at the final critter and getting a free* retry.

I don't know what the proper solve is. I do know Six Portals fucking sucks. I love the One Portal system and the fact that it makes me play and fight like my existence actually matters instead of Betty Bigtits-ing my way around the place, but without the "whoops, your character's now gone forever" penalty of Hardcore. Sure, sometimes when I lose a map in a way I'm not fond of I'll put the game down for a while. That is perfectly okay. We're not Blizzard, who sees any possible moment of put-the-controller-down as a failure. Being dispirited by a moment of failure means you were invested in the hunt for success If failure doesn't hurt, then success was not worth achieving. That sense of success being worth achieving is so much stronger in PoE2 than it is in PoE1, and I'd be super upset to lose it.

"

1453R#7804 wrote:

"

Z3RoNightMare#7140 wrote:

If every time something goes wrong, you just say 'It’s your fault,' you’re ignoring the broader issue of game design. Some players might not mind the high stakes, but for others, it’s a frustrating experience that could easily be addressed by tweaking how failure impacts the player’s progression.

It's not about 'blaming' players for not being perfect; it’s about creating an environment where failure is a learning opportunity, not just a setback that makes people feel like they're being punished for every minor mistake. So, when you say 'It’s your fault,' it’s almost like you're shifting the blame onto the player, without recognizing that the design itself can sometimes create a cycle of frustration rather than growth.

And yet the number of peopole who complain about One Portal by saying "I am an Elite Golden God of gaming, I have LITERALLY NEVER died to anything in Path of Exile except bullshit instant one-shots Nostradamus couldn't see coming! I don't deserve to lose my map because of GGG's dogshit balance!" is far, far, far greater than anyone arguing your point of constant stress.

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

It's the softcore league. Seriously, for what purpose could it possibly serve to frustrate so many players by being so punitive?

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

That doesn't mean the vast majority of players have to be ok with so punitive a death penalty as we have right now in, once again, the god damned softcore league.

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

how softcore league should not be punitive by its intended design (especially given PoE1's approach to Standard)

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

This random spiking is the biggest reason I gave up on hardcore years ago and is a top three reason why one-attempt maps needs to go in standard/softcore.

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CPTBRUMBL3Z#3146 wrote:

One-attempt runs counter to the intended design philosophy behind softcore leagues.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

In the hundreds if not thousands of posts you've made so far asking the game to be made easier and less punitive, we have yet to see ONCE you admitting that you may not be as good as you think you are and that you do mistakes from time to time resulting in death by your own fault, and it isn't because of unseen effets and imbalanced damage .

"

1453R#7804 wrote:

"

Z3RoNightMare#7140 wrote:

If every time something goes wrong, you just say 'It’s your fault,' you’re ignoring the broader issue of game design. Some players might not mind the high stakes, but for others, it’s a frustrating experience that could easily be addressed by tweaking how failure impacts the player’s progression.

It's not about 'blaming' players for not being perfect; it’s about creating an environment where failure is a learning opportunity, not just a setback that makes people feel like they're being punished for every minor mistake. So, when you say 'It’s your fault,' it’s almost like you're shifting the blame onto the player, without recognizing that the design itself can sometimes create a cycle of frustration rather than growth.

And yet the number of peopole who complain about One Portal by saying "I am an Elite Golden God of gaming, I have LITERALLY NEVER died to anything in Path of Exile except bullshit instant one-shots Nostradamus couldn't see coming! I don't deserve to lose my map because of GGG's dogshit balance!" is far, far, far greater than anyone arguing your point of constant stress.

Anyone who makes such an argument is a bullshitting blowhard that has no business talking on the Internet. You (generic 'you the audience', not Z3ro specifically) are not that fucking guy. You know GOOD GODDAMN WELL what killed you, it was not an Instant Bullshit One-Shot, and arguing that your status as an Elite Golden God of Gaming needs respecting by the game design is horse hockey.

It honestly reminds me of something I remember one of the Japanese devs of Tekken saying, when the latest Tekken came out. Modern fighting games and other competitive games which pit a single player against another single player are way less popular than they used to be because modern gamers have been trained by high-profile team games to blame anyone but themselves for their failures. It's always "The Team's Fault" you lost in those games, never your own, but when you win it's clearly because you yourself performed amazingly. It's apparently a real thing in development now - players in games without a 'Team' to insulate their egos have to eat the blame for their losses themselves and modern players have decided they don't like the taste of it.

It's another reason why Soulslikes get memed on in the broader gaming community - a good Soulslike makes it agonizingly clear that when you go down it's your own bleedin' fault, and there's a whole generation of modern gamers that cannot tolerate the taste of their own failures. They will blame everything prior to acknowledging that they biffed it, and there's nothing you can do to stop them.

Give those people six portals and when they burn up an entire level, drop back down a level, and fail to clear their six-portal map they will blame Bad Mob Balance for the problem just as much as they blame Bad Mob Balance for their deaths in One Portal; they'll just lose way more than if the game had cut them off after a single biff. Failure will never be "a learning experience" for those players because they categorically refuse to learn.

Now, I take your point about constant stress. That is literally the first time I've ever seen a valid argument against One Portal; that some players are wound too tight by the tension of knowing a single biff can cost them their waystone and that tension bleeds much of the fun out of the game. That could use a solve, but again - blowing up the entire PoE2 endgame and replacing it wholesale with PoE1's vastly inferior endgame is not a proper solve. There needs to be stakes for failure, and six portals is basically the same as infinite portals. I honestly like Jonathan's idea of being able to expend an additional Waystone to retry the map with all its mechanics and rewards intact, but I also understand the issue with people using that to manipulatively double (or more) their juicing on every single map they run by deliberately dying at the final critter and getting a free* retry.

I don't know what the proper solve is. I do know Six Portals fucking sucks. I love the One Portal system and the fact that it makes me play and fight like my existence actually matters instead of Betty Bigtits-ing my way around the place, but without the "whoops, your character's now gone forever" penalty of Hardcore. Sure, sometimes when I lose a map in a way I'm not fond of I'll put the game down for a while. That is perfectly okay. We're not Blizzard, who sees any possible moment of put-the-controller-down as a failure. Being dispirited by a moment of failure means you were invested in the hunt for success If failure doesn't hurt, then success was not worth achieving. That sense of success being worth achieving is so much stronger in PoE2 than it is in PoE1, and I'd be super upset to lose it.

"

Z3RoNightMare#7140 wrote:

"

dwqrf#0717 wrote:

In the hundreds if not thousands of posts you've made so far asking the game to be made easier and less punitive, we have yet to see ONCE you admitting that you may not be as good as you think you are and that you do mistakes from time to time resulting in death by your own fault, and it isn't because of unseen effets and imbalanced damage .

The issue isn’t that I refuse to acknowledge mistakes or personal accountability – I’ve admitted plenty of times that player error can contribute to failure. The issue is the tendency to dismiss or downplay the broader context of game design flaws and overly punitive mechanics that also play a role in those failures. It's about balancing both sides – acknowledging when it's the player's fault and when game design decisions create unnecessary frustration.

Also, I don't think it's fair to assume that a desire for a less punitive system equals a lack of skill. A challenging game can still be fair and rewarding. PoE1 made changes based on player feedback that improved the experience, and it's not unreasonable to expect PoE2 to do the same. When people ask for more reasonable difficulty curves or clearer mechanics, it's not about reducing challenge; it's about fairness and clarity – concepts that have often been overlooked in favor of design decisions that don't always take player feedback into account.

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StrykerxS77x#8221 wrote:

There is stakes for failure. It's the xp loss. One Portal is not needed. It was obviously poorly thought out as well since the devs already admitted the pinnacle bosses should have had six portals to begin with.