WHY PUNISH PEOPLE FOR DYING?

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Echothesis wrote:

Endurance charges alone won't save me from T17 bosses, even with serious investment of like 10 charges (idk if that's even possible, don't play marauders or duelists).

So am I understanding you correctly that top-right side of the tree should have either phys taken as ele or end charges? If yes, nothing new so far. Both unique-based and crafted-rare based phys taken as ele takes a lot of space on character.

I thought about hit-to-dot conversion, but health regen is inconvenient on top-right side either, and leech is unreliable because bosses have invulnerability phases forcing you to break contact even if you are not melee range.

Just chiming in here, because I had the same problem last league. It's pretty hard to get good phys mitigation as a shadow for example, if u don't want to use lightning coil, but it's not impossible.
It took me some time and honestly a Mageblood to make it work for T17 in 3.24, but u can do it.

I chose a very strange pathing so I could go MoM with EB and also get Iron Reflexes at the bottom. Combined with Petrified Blood for more mitigation and overleech (as a wander). It turned out great and T17 bosses were pretty easy in the end, but it definitely took a while. I think without mageblood my armour wouldn't have been enough tho.

(char name is ElementalSadaukar for reference)

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Belegur85 wrote:

Yep agree completely with the above. It is true that people are modifying their gameplay to play risky after levelling then safe and boring when they get closer to levelling. I don't think this is great. I think the problem is less to do the xp penalty and actually not loosing xp beyond one level. I don't know what the solution to that would be, but I do think this aspect could be improved. Gameplay changing because of where the bar is upto is probably not the best design, and I think this is where some of the frustration of the people who are against death penalty is coming from. That they don't want to play safe and boring for a period of time. Not sure what the solution to that is, because removing death penalty might solve this, but it wont be good for the game in general.

I feel like most games solve this by making getting back to your corpse (corpse run) or regaining the lost ground punishing enough.

I think POE2 is doing full run back when you die to a boss isn't it? Can't recall exactly but I remember that they're doing something like that.

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Sadaukar wrote:

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Echothesis wrote:

Endurance charges alone won't save me from T17 bosses, even with serious investment of like 10 charges (idk if that's even possible, don't play marauders or duelists).

So am I understanding you correctly that top-right side of the tree should have either phys taken as ele or end charges? If yes, nothing new so far. Both unique-based and crafted-rare based phys taken as ele takes a lot of space on character.

I thought about hit-to-dot conversion, but health regen is inconvenient on top-right side either, and leech is unreliable because bosses have invulnerability phases forcing you to break contact even if you are not melee range.

Just chiming in here, because I had the same problem last league. It's pretty hard to get good phys mitigation as a shadow for example, if u don't want to use lightning coil, but it's not impossible.
It took me some time and honestly a Mageblood to make it work for T17 in 3.24, but u can do it.

I chose a very strange pathing so I could go MoM with EB and also get Iron Reflexes at the bottom. Combined with Petrified Blood for more mitigation and overleech (as a wander). It turned out great and T17 bosses were pretty easy in the end, but it definitely took a while. I think without mageblood my armour wouldn't have been enough tho.

(char name is ElementalSadaukar for reference)

Yeah, pathing to opposite side of the tree for iron reflexes and bringing mageblood to get mitigation to the most common enemy damage type sounds about right. GGG thinks a lot about player power creep, but pays no attention to how monster power creep made evasion as base defense not performing its primary function unless backed by mitigation:)

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jsuslak313 wrote:

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mrhouston wrote:

After above, what remains of "justified difficulty"? Penalty in this specific game kills desire to experiment, as you know how much will you die with new build before it gets minmaxed. It forces to avoid trying (even learning) new boss because you are at the middle of the level and have to spam barren white maps 50 times more.

Disagree wholeheartedly with this statement. This is a PERSONAL issue, not an issue with the exp penalty.

The exp penalty is the absolute bare minimum penalty this game has to offer. It is almost entirely MEANINGLESS before you hit 95. Maybe 30m of gameplay, or even less.

If you are so turned off by losing exp that you refuse to progress in the game unless you are immortal....then that is on YOU. Lighten up a little. You aren't playing hardcore.

No one is trying a brand "new boss" at level 95.



In fact, I would argue the OPPOSITE is true. Punishment in the form of exp, a relatively benign yet noticeable punishment, ENCOURAGES experimentation. It forces you to think about how you died, how you might NOT die the next time. Without a punishment, there is no need for experimentation at all....eventually you'll get lucky and the vast majority will not change a thing and just keep throwing themselves at the challenge with no real learning.

If you quit because you lost exp due to death, you take the game way too seriously. That's "rage". If you have no interest in improving and would rather the game just offer zero challenge....play something else. Death by itself does absolutely nothing. Death with tangible consequence has meaning and drives thought and creativity.


And the kicker to all this? Everyone rails on the exp penalty, but doesn't offer any other comparable punishment. Because there IS NO comparable punishment. Exp is literally the least valuable thing the game has to offer to players, and that is where the punihsment comes from. There is no item durability and central currency that could be the punishment instead. Losing a portal is hardly a punishment because you have 6 of them. Exp is it. The least common denominator. The least obstructive possible choice they could make within the constraints of the game to offer meaning to death.

I did offer several alternative designs before, just don't see the point of copypasting them in every new thread, because no way devs would actually consider changing their ways. This forum serves mostly for venting frustration, and if you are being humble and polite, no one will even notice you here:) Being toxic and rude at least achieves half the objective, I take pride in every deleted post, lol.

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alhazred70 wrote:

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Belegur85 wrote:

Yep agree completely with the above. It is true that people are modifying their gameplay to play risky after levelling then safe and boring when they get closer to levelling. I don't think this is great. I think the problem is less to do the xp penalty and actually not loosing xp beyond one level. I don't know what the solution to that would be, but I do think this aspect could be improved. Gameplay changing because of where the bar is upto is probably not the best design, and I think this is where some of the frustration of the people who are against death penalty is coming from. That they don't want to play safe and boring for a period of time. Not sure what the solution to that is, because removing death penalty might solve this, but it wont be good for the game in general.

I feel like most games solve this by making getting back to your corpse (corpse run) or regaining the lost ground punishing enough.

I think POE2 is doing full run back when you die to a boss isn't it? Can't recall exactly but I remember that they're doing something like that.

Regaining say 40-60% of the lost exp if you are able to get back to your corpse personaly feels like it could be a nice change.

You could then get some back if you are able to, and then evacuate from the to hard map. Or it could still end up just like darksouls. You keep going and moving your lost souls a little bit at a time, but here you run out of portals and think "At what cost" :)

Maybe we can re-use the Necropolis dude to do a little quest as we level up and unlock your "soul connection" or something. I still think removing the penelty completly would not be a good thing as it still makes you stop and ponder a little about your situation and what you can do to improve it.

But to be able to get some of what was lost on death if you are able to get to your corpse could maybe be an ok mix of it?

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alhazred70 wrote:

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Belegur85 wrote:

Yep agree completely with the above. It is true that people are modifying their gameplay to play risky after levelling then safe and boring when they get closer to levelling. I don't think this is great. I think the problem is less to do the xp penalty and actually not loosing xp beyond one level. I don't know what the solution to that would be, but I do think this aspect could be improved. Gameplay changing because of where the bar is upto is probably not the best design, and I think this is where some of the frustration of the people who are against death penalty is coming from. That they don't want to play safe and boring for a period of time. Not sure what the solution to that is, because removing death penalty might solve this, but it wont be good for the game in general.

I feel like most games solve this by making getting back to your corpse (corpse run) or regaining the lost ground punishing enough.

I think POE2 is doing full run back when you die to a boss isn't it? Can't recall exactly but I remember that they're doing something like that.

Yeah I think it's an option. I don't think its the greatest though. I didn't particularly like this in D2. I think it's fine but it can also lead to more aggravating and punish situations than just loosing xp. Running around with no gear trying to kite enemies and not get hit until you tap your corpse was not great gameplay. You have a choice on this sure. You can forgo the returned xp. Circumstances come up where you don't want to do this though. An example, something really valuable drops under a big mob and you die from the mob, lets say, first divine of the league. You are not going to give that up for even a full level of xp. So your now in a side game trying to snipe your gear back. So now you likely have to always have a back up set of gear incase of these situation, this is becoming way more of a chore and penalty than simply just loosing xp, and it can often cause way more xp loss trying to recover what has been lost than simply leaving an area which maybe way too risky to be in initially.

Perhaps some games have it where you now don't loose gear but have to tap corpse to get some or all of the xp loss back. I think maybe this is how grim dawn does it. It will still be people creating threads like this one, only I went in to recover xp and end up loosing more xp, why GGG? They don't want penalties at all, but don't understand the reason this resistance is in the game. I think GGG current implementation is pretty good, there is possibility for it to be better, but blindly removing obstacles from the game will not make it a better game.

I'm currently at lvl96/61% xp and my build is starting to level off without some major upgrades, so it does fell like I should now level safely. This might not be what I want to do. I probably want to run some 8 mod corrupted 16 or t17 maps, but I might end up back at 0. I can understand this is not fun for most people, having a window open up after the level where I suddenly am immune to xp loss. Maybe the soulution is something like having exponential xp penalties, so if you get one shot mapping you basically loose nothing, then on the second or third death slightly more, then it ramps up, and the counter resets it self after you gain 10% xp. Omens sort of provide protection like this, though I don't know if it is the full answer. You would have to make difficult decisions. Like doing a boss, you die once, do you continue risking xp or waste the encounter. It would be a softer penalty than the current system. People would still not like it. They don't realise if you take all of the challenge out of the game, it wont be any good. I can't speak for everyone, I know some people just like to maximizing the currency they can farm, it's still all connected though. Moving goal posts wont make a better game. Having a game without a challenge might be what some people want but it's not for me, and it's not what GGG have created. Those games exist if people want to play them. I know people didn't like the difficulty of D3 when it launched, it was pretty rough, but I think nerfing it was actually one of the main factors in the game devolving (other than bugs maintenance and errors), not in fact the auction house as many believe. There was things they did need to take out of the game. Invulnerable minions was causing problems, but removing the difficulty of inferno took out the challenge, and they continued this until the game became about movement speed and dps. POE doesn't need to follow that example, from what I've seen they won't because they understand why the game needs to be challenging, even if there is many thing they can improve, like new content not being out of reach of casual players. I think this wouldn't be so bad if the content became available to standard league, as people would be able to slowly get there. The way leagues work players might fell they are forced to play league and be getting stuck on a levelling treadmill. That's how the game is designed currently. I still think it is a way better model than other games that just run out of things to do. Anyone who likes ARPG and went through droughts of there being no game to play will understand having more content and updates is not a bad thing.

(Double post please remove)

Good luck trying to kite your gear back in poe where you died with full gear xd

The exp penalty is fine, but maybe it should only punish you that hard once in a specific instance.

I would suggest sth like first rip as is -> second one only half the exp loss and 3rd dead+ 1% exp loss each. That would at least encourage players to defeat a certain rare or prevend you from losing more than 20% exp at a pinnacle boss fight.
A linear exp loss for several rips from the same monster/boss is a little harsh as is maybe...

But there absolutely must be a penalty for dying! Glass canon meta is already a thing. It would only get worse...

exp malus is a very good thing.

If there were no punishment for dying, everyone would skill brainless damage, not worry about their build and newbies would just die their way through... something like that is no fun and you don't learn anything.

Have you ever been lv 100 in Diablo?? Feels uninteresting since even a cat can reach level 100 in Diablo.

Learn the game, get to grips with your character... then you'll be happy to reach level 100.

Losing experience is straight up backwards progress which is not good. Nobody plays any game to progress backwards.

Anyone saying it is good to limit you to build defense and not just brainlessly farm maps with 2k hp does not know how this game works.

We are limited by portals. You can't just die infinitely in any map. other than that it is super inefficient to repeatedly die and re-enter the map etc.

There are multiple topics that I already posted over the years dozens of ways how to change death penalty while keeping it relevant but not a chore that straight up kills your mood to progres but they definitely need to change it for PoE2. At least make it recoverable some of the amount of xp that you lost if you beat the mobs that killed you or make catch up boost up to the point you were before death. So you can get back as soon as possible and continue your progress. Make xp loss dependant of xp / hour or proportional to the xp you gain. Dying on level 70 while a map gives you 50% xp is not the same as dying on 98 when 15 maps gives you 10% yet you lose the same amount. This means dying on 98 should not penalize you with flat 10% maybe 1-2% at best.