Recent Economic Abuse

"

xebtria wrote:

If you uncover an exploit and abuse it for your benefit, we will ban you.

everybody with two functioning brain cells will understand that getting 30-40+ brother's gifts from a single pack can never be an intended outcome, in none of the 14,000,605 different parallel universes, making it an exploit regardless of how "simply using the tools given to them" it is.

Yes, it is on GGG that it made it into the final release in the first place, but it is on every individual player whether you run it once, identify it as way too fucking hot to be intended and then stay away from it, or to run it 250 times and make the equivalent of trillions, aka abusing the blatantly obvious exploit. And ruining the economy in the process.

I hope Mark stays true to Chris' words and they will get a ban. Minimum for this league.

Can you explain me exactly, in which moment using Divination Scarab of Plenty on T16 scryed to T1 map you see the exploit? I agree, that was not intended, but worked within' "normal playing", unlike with Ultimatum abuse on leaving the ring or Beyond spawnlings farm. I might understand why GGG took this so seriously (especially on edge of PoE2), but in my opinion, this was same level of severity as Harbinger farm and Uniq Voidstones - just fix/nerf it, problem solved.

"

Can you explain me exactly, in which moment using Divination Scarab of Plenty on T16 scryed to T1 map you see the exploit? I agree, that was not intended, but worked within' "normal playing", unlike with Ultimatum abuse on leaving the ring or Beyond spawnlings farm. I might understand why GGG took this so seriously (especially on edge of PoE2), but in my opinion, this was same level of severity as Harbinger farm and Uniq Voidstones - just fix/nerf it, problem solved.

You don't understand what "exploit abuse" is. Exploit abuse isn't just a bug or error in the software which you abuse, it's also abusing things that are OBVIOUSLY unintended by the designers.

You confirmed it yourself: "I agree, that was not intended". Everybody knows it is not intended, which makes it exploit abusing.

"

_Aldheart_ wrote:

"

xebtria wrote:

If you uncover an exploit and abuse it for your benefit, we will ban you.

everybody with two functioning brain cells will understand that getting 30-40+ brother's gifts from a single pack can never be an intended outcome, in none of the 14,000,605 different parallel universes, making it an exploit regardless of how "simply using the tools given to them" it is.

Yes, it is on GGG that it made it into the final release in the first place, but it is on every individual player whether you run it once, identify it as way too fucking hot to be intended and then stay away from it, or to run it 250 times and make the equivalent of trillions, aka abusing the blatantly obvious exploit. And ruining the economy in the process.

I hope Mark stays true to Chris' words and they will get a ban. Minimum for this league.

Can you explain me exactly, in which moment using Divination Scarab of Plenty on T16 scryed to T1 map you see the exploit? I agree, that was not intended, but worked within' "normal playing", unlike with Ultimatum abuse on leaving the ring or Beyond spawnlings farm. I might understand why GGG took this so seriously (especially on edge of PoE2), but in my opinion, this was same level of severity as Harbinger farm and Uniq Voidstones - just fix/nerf it, problem solved.

Hi, it appears you are misunderstanding the definition of exploit in this context. Exploiting is using unintended systems, repeatedly. An exploit does not have to involve cheating in any way to be an exploit.

Another example of an exploit is players in PvP zones that stay in safe low level areas to over-level before moving on to other content. they are exploiting the safe zone. Its an unintended way to play. but its not cheating.

too many people confuse the word exploit with cheating. exploiting is the act of using a cheat or unintended system. to be an exploit, the devs merely declare that something is not intended.

Its generally understood in games like PoE, what the expected economic reward levels are. discovering something with extremely lopsided rewards should always be reported, not exploited.

"

HurkWurk wrote:

"

_Aldheart_ wrote:

"

xebtria wrote:

If you uncover an exploit and abuse it for your benefit, we will ban you.

everybody with two functioning brain cells will understand that getting 30-40+ brother's gifts from a single pack can never be an intended outcome, in none of the 14,000,605 different parallel universes, making it an exploit regardless of how "simply using the tools given to them" it is.

Yes, it is on GGG that it made it into the final release in the first place, but it is on every individual player whether you run it once, identify it as way too fucking hot to be intended and then stay away from it, or to run it 250 times and make the equivalent of trillions, aka abusing the blatantly obvious exploit. And ruining the economy in the process.

I hope Mark stays true to Chris' words and they will get a ban. Minimum for this league.

Can you explain me exactly, in which moment using Divination Scarab of Plenty on T16 scryed to T1 map you see the exploit? I agree, that was not intended, but worked within' "normal playing", unlike with Ultimatum abuse on leaving the ring or Beyond spawnlings farm. I might understand why GGG took this so seriously (especially on edge of PoE2), but in my opinion, this was same level of severity as Harbinger farm and Uniq Voidstones - just fix/nerf it, problem solved.

Hi, it appears you are misunderstanding the definition of exploit in this context. Exploiting is using unintended systems, repeatedly. An exploit does not have to involve cheating in any way to be an exploit.

Another example of an exploit is players in PvP zones that stay in safe low level areas to over-level before moving on to other content. they are exploiting the safe zone. Its an unintended way to play. but its not cheating.

too many people confuse the word exploit with cheating. exploiting is the act of using a cheat or unintended system. to be an exploit, the devs merely declare that something is not intended.

Its generally understood in games like PoE, what the expected economic reward levels are. discovering something with extremely lopsided rewards should always be reported, not exploited.

What I dont understand how this is "Unintended" this is exactly what these items were indented to do. Unintended is the six socket shields. Shields dont have more than three sockets and an item allowed them to have six unintentionally.

Every one of these mechanics was working as intended from what we were told how they would work. The results may not be intended but the mechanics were being used exactly as stated to influence the drops exactly as stated. Which part was unintended?

If GGG overlooked the tier of map when a div card drops when scrying thats an oversight on their end but working as presented on ours as the player.

Exploits shouildnt be "You have to be able to read the minds of the developer or youre in trouble" This is very clear that they didnt mean for these mechanics to have this good of a result but its only an exploit post results. Its a retroactive punishment of "Oh shoot we didnt think of that so since we didnt think this through its an "'EXPLOIT' and youre banned!"

For me an exploit has to be a mechanic not working as intended and nothing about this doing anything unintentional until after they saw the results.

I agree with your decision and understand it. Thank you for your hard work.

Dude 24 mirrors 10+ mageblood and 200+hinekoras at day 3 are you really trying to shift the blame on ggg right now? Not even full grup play can generate that absurdity this league on such a small playtime frame

sounds fair. locking the wealth from the exploit is a good move.

"

BuyTradeSell wrote:

What I dont understand how this is "Unintended" this is exactly what these items were indented to do. Unintended is the six socket shields. Shields dont have more than three sockets and an item allowed them to have six unintentionally.

Every one of these mechanics was working as intended from what we were told how they would work. The results may not be intended but the mechanics were being used exactly as stated to influence the drops exactly as stated. Which part was unintended?

If GGG overlooked the tier of map when a div card drops when scrying thats an oversight on their end but working as presented on ours as the player.

Exploits shouildnt be "You have to be able to read the minds of the developer or youre in trouble" This is very clear that they didnt mean for these mechanics to have this good of a result but its only an exploit post results. Its a retroactive punishment of "Oh shoot we didnt think of that so since we didnt think this through its an "'EXPLOIT' and youre banned!"

For me an exploit has to be a mechanic not working as intended and nothing about this doing anything unintentional until after they saw the results.

The alternative is that:
1. The entire economy explodes because of 12 people, and GGG just lets it happen and trade becomes unusable.
2. Going forward, because every issue is all on GGG, they have to spend their entire dev time testing every little piece of content for abuse scenarios, meaning they need to play it extremely safe, and thus every league will change little to nothing. No more giant content or rebalance leagues because they need to be ABSOLUTELY SURE nothing will go wrong, because they're not allowed to fix issues as they arise anymore.

GGG isn't omniscient, and they don't have unlimited resources.

"

lRedWolf wrote:

Dude 24 mirrors 10+ mageblood and 200+hinekoras at day 3 are you really trying to shift the blame on ggg right now? Not even full grup play can generate that absurdity this league on such a small playtime frame

And yet you fail to mention one thing that wasnt working as intended when presented to the players. They presented Scrying maps, they presented only 4 div cards per map, they presented tier of map needed for drop of div cards, they presented each scarab... None of this was an exploit of "Its not supposed to work that way." it worked exactly like they showed. Youre just upset at the results of a complex system that this mechanic was overlooked. So yeah GGG introduced Scrying and it blew up in their face because they didnt think it all the way through and they are taking it out on players who can do basic problem solving and were looking in this specific direction.

"

CaffeinatedFog wrote:

"

BuyTradeSell wrote:

What I dont understand how this is "Unintended" this is exactly what these items were indented to do. Unintended is the six socket shields. Shields dont have more than three sockets and an item allowed them to have six unintentionally.

Every one of these mechanics was working as intended from what we were told how they would work. The results may not be intended but the mechanics were being used exactly as stated to influence the drops exactly as stated. Which part was unintended?

If GGG overlooked the tier of map when a div card drops when scrying thats an oversight on their end but working as presented on ours as the player.

Exploits shouildnt be "You have to be able to read the minds of the developer or youre in trouble" This is very clear that they didnt mean for these mechanics to have this good of a result but its only an exploit post results. Its a retroactive punishment of "Oh shoot we didnt think of that so since we didnt think this through its an "'EXPLOIT' and youre banned!"

For me an exploit has to be a mechanic not working as intended and nothing about this doing anything unintentional until after they saw the results.

The alternative is that:
1. The entire economy explodes because of 12 people, and GGG just lets it happen and trade becomes unusable.
2. Going forward, because every issue is all on GGG, they have to spend their entire dev time testing every little piece of content for abuse scenarios, meaning they need to play it extremely safe, and thus every league will change little to nothing. No more giant content or rebalance leagues because they need to be ABSOLUTELY SURE nothing will go wrong, because they're not allowed to fix issues as they arise anymore.

GGG isn't omniscient, and they don't have unlimited resources.

1. No one said they couldnt remove the loot and change the method (Which they did), the banned the players permanently and then reduced it to league suspension. They could have just removed the loot and let them play since again I would argue they used the mechanics exactly as they were intended. They also didnt delete all the 6 link offhand items and ban everyone who used a CLEAR "EXPLOIT" so spare me with this

2. No one said they cant make mistakes and things get wrecked. The issue isnt that they fixed a problem the issue is they retroactively called intended mechanic usage an "Exploit" and banned people permanently and then later reduced to suspension for league. for their lack of testing. Crap happens the issue here is they cant define what an "Exploit" is other than to say its an exploit if it works too well. and thats a terrible definition of "exploit" and then how they handle people who the feel have exploited is extremely pick and choose and not universal. These are the problems.

This post could have just said "We messed up and it allowed for an interaction we werent expecting. To save the experience for eveyeone we have fixed the issue and removed all known rewards from this interaction. Boom done! but no, they blame the players. So yeah GGG is at fault and they blame the players and thats not good either.