Fix the bugs in the game!

"

Jixa87 wrote:

Dear GGG,

We understand there are a myriad of bugs within the game, we understand the focus is on POE2, we understand that resources and finances are constrained and limited.
However,
Trawling the poe forums and reddit, it's clear that there are a number of bugs still persiting throughout the game. Specifically the ones that users encounter on their day to day journeys throughout Wraeclast.
Currently, There isn't sufficient response on the news or forums to rest our quarrels with these issues. From Client Crashes, desync issues, primary functionality of the game like Atlas passives, specifically, but not limited to, Grove and Bestiary.

I believe it would satisfy the players of Path of Exile to hear more about what bugs are in-scope and have been, or scheduled to, be triaged with the team.
We don't need to hear about new functionality on the horizon, that's reserved for league launches - so if the plan is to re-scope the functionality as an alternative to fixing the issue, just simply let us know it's being addressed.
We're not expecting these bug fixes to be dropped in a daily production release, we know it takes time to develop, test and deploy updates. We're just simply asking for acknowledgement of the bugs that are important to us, because they impact us.

Players will continue to submit bug reports, post on reddit and the forums about their issues, but there is no Known Issues page that can be referenced to say "Oh yeah that bug is acknowledged, check out this page"
So we're left to guess whether the bug is even acknowledged by the company.

Thoughts?

I can add your post to the OP - please make clear if that post reflects your opinion or if you were just trying to guess mine in which case I wont - but some parts are disagreeable for me so its going to be your post without me "signing" it.

Disagreeable are:

1) "we understand the focus is on POE2" I dont "understand" the focus on PoE2. Its a weird thing dominant in contemporary culture to make new for the sake of new. But I do not "understand" it, although I can observe it.

2) "we understand that resources and finances are constrained and limited." While this is correct it would be misleading for me to write this as it doesnt properly reflect my opinions on the matter from a quantitative perspective.

3) The focus on general one-time feedback. I dont care about words. I wouldnt believe them anyway. The focus on "soothe players now" is exactly what I am NOT looking for. I want a so-to-speak better future, not nice words now. Obviously feedback now wouldnt be bad but I would never bother to make a topic/post for it.
What I believe in are deeds / visible results:

a) Bugs fixed in the game, and put the fixes into patch notes.

b) Better feedback to players who report bugs, put it into the forum where they are reported. The quota of threads with "GGG" seems to be <5% now. And dont just move threads off the bug forum without comment. It takes time and effort for players to report. Giving them zero feedback discourages making bug reports.

c) Uptodate bug list (technically there is a known issues page) - just look at the last update of this way too short list: Last edited by Kieren_GGG on Jan 30, 2024, 4:28:14 AM

--

Also in addition to the above in case you are unaware of it: The way you try to communicate here is not how GGG wants players to communicate. There have been various statements by GGG execs on that in the past. I remember the following:

1) Players are supposed to make "angry reddit threads". Chris Wilson IIRC. Long ago. IIRC the reasoning given was that they want undiminished emotional feedback.

2) Players are supposed to write "Bingo"s. The new guy in charge, rather recently. He supposedly wants it to be short and simple, doesnt want essays.

Writing a blanket "fix the bugs in the game" offers absolutely nothing to go on. It is non-specific, needlessly aggressive (with an ! no less), and basically a non-starter.

What are the bugs? Which ones are giving you trouble? Where are all these other bug threads that persist and are they in the Bugs forum? Etc.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

Writing a blanket "fix the bugs in the game" offers absolutely nothing to go on.

Clearly it does. GGG knows there are bugs in the game. See the bug list they themselves have. It tells them that some players (me at least) want them to be fixed.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

It is non-specific, needlessly aggressive (with an ! no less), and basically a non-starter.

If you got a better starter - why dont you share it?

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

What are the bugs?

If you read the thread you "should" know that I listed several ones.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

Which ones are giving you trouble?

If you read the thread you "should" know that the point of the thread is not about them fixing specific bugs. Its about a general focus shift towards more bug fixing.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

Where are all these other bug threads that persist and are they in the Bugs forum? Etc.

Which other bug threads? What are you talking about here?

"

Zrevnur wrote:

please make clear if that post reflects your opinion

I don't disagree with the statements i've made in the above post, but it's a first draft.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

I dont "understand" the focus on PoE2. Its a weird thing dominant in contemporary culture to make new for the sake of new. But I do not "understand" it, although I can observe it.

POE1 has reached a technical limitation, in that it was initially designed 11 years ago. In that time, a broad range of new tools are available, some can be shoe-horned into the existing architecture but the new tools can make for better productivity and implementation of new features that cannot be implemeneted in POE1. The current engine is functional but the potential of the new engine needs to be explored.
It's like buying a house that can't fit todays modern automation like a washing machine and dish washer, as a company do you want staff slowed down by having to hand was clothes and dishes? That's slow and ineffecient.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

While this is correct it would be misleading for me to write this as it doesnt properly reflect my opinions on the matter from a quantitative perspective.

That's fine, just an appreciation to the current climate.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

What I believe in are deeds / visible results:

a) Bugs fixed in the game, and put the fixes into patch notes.

b) Better feedback to players who report bugs, put it into the forum where they are reported. The quota of threads with "GGG" seems to be <5% now. And dont just move threads off the bug forum without comment. It takes time and effort for players to report. Giving them zero feedback discourages making bug reports.

c) Uptodate bug list (technically there is a known issues page) - just look at the last update of this way too short list: Last edited by Kieren_GGG on Jan 30, 2024, 4:28:14 AM

Why wasn't this in the original post, it's clear, concise and useful feedback as it gives direction and meaning. These are the actionable actions you would like to see to prosper a better future.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

1) Players are supposed to make "angry reddit threads". Chris Wilson IIRC. Long ago. IIRC the reasoning given was that they want undiminished emotional feedback.

Don't let some post from long ago, affect who you are and how you want to portay your opinions. Provide constructuve useful feedback if you want results. You don't walk into a fast food place of business and yell at the staff demanding your food be made before all others, that's rude in real life and it's rude online.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

2) Players are supposed to write "Bingo"s. The new guy in charge, rather recently. He supposedly wants it to be short and simple, doesnt want essays.

Nobody wants essays, hich is why you always need to consider, what is the best way I can clearly communicate what the desire is, without writing a wall of text, boring people to sleep. It's a communication skill, people get better at over time.

"

Jixa87 wrote:

"

Zrevnur wrote:

please make clear if that post reflects your opinion

I don't disagree with the statements i've made in the above post, but it's a first draft.

Ok, will add to OP.

"

Jixa87 wrote:

POE1 has reached a technical limitation, in that it was initially designed 11 years ago. In that time, a broad range of new tools are available, some can be shoe-horned into the existing architecture but the new tools can make for better productivity and implementation of new features that cannot be implemeneted in POE1. The current engine is functional but the potential of the new engine needs to be explored.
It's like buying a house that can't fit todays modern automation like a washing machine and dish washer, as a company do you want staff slowed down by having to hand was clothes and dishes? That's slow and ineffecient.

I dont have any such insight. So even if its true I do not "understand" it. And they are planning on continuing PoE1.

"

Jixa87 wrote:

"

Zrevnur wrote:

What I believe in are deeds / visible results:

a) Bugs fixed in the game, and put the fixes into patch notes.

b) Better feedback to players who report bugs, put it into the forum where they are reported. The quota of threads with "GGG" seems to be <5% now. And dont just move threads off the bug forum without comment. It takes time and effort for players to report. Giving them zero feedback discourages making bug reports.

c) Uptodate bug list (technically there is a known issues page) - just look at the last update of this way too short list: Last edited by Kieren_GGG on Jan 30, 2024, 4:28:14 AM

Why wasn't this in the original post, it's clear, concise and useful feedback as it gives direction and meaning. These are the actionable actions you would like to see to prosper a better future.

Will add to OP making it clear that a) is #1 priority.

"

Jixa87 wrote:

Don't let some post from long ago, affect who you are and how you want to portay your opinions.

I dont have an issue with my OP and topic. I wouldnt have written it otherwise like that.

"

Jixa87 wrote:

You don't walk into a fast food place of business and yell at the staff demanding your food be made before all others, that's rude in real life and it's rude online.

Im not addressing staff here. And I dont demand "my food" is made before others. A better analogy would be having eaten at that place and there were some bugs in the food and then complaining in an online review about the bugs. Thats basically what Im doing here. (And then there are some other commenters saying "The bugs in the food are no big deal, none are poisonous. Its more important to have a new menu every 4 months.")

If ggg published bugfixes more clearly then the community would see the sisyphean task ahead of devs.

Frankly they need to do more, I am grateful by what they have done and will continue to do. However so much of the game is inexcusable.

"

roundishcap wrote:

If ggg published bugfixes more clearly then the community would see the sisyphean task ahead of devs.

Frankly they need to do more, I am grateful by what they have done and will continue to do. However so much of the game is inexcusable.

What they should do in your opinion? If they dont have the resources as already explained. Many dont understand how difficult game development is, how much time and money it consumes. Its just not possible to fix everything what the players wants to be fixed. So there are always mad players, because they dont get the attention they want.
Imagine a big family with 10 childrens of different ages. You cant give every child the same attention. When the baby, that is a few month old, needs to be feed, then that has a higher priority, then the child that cant solve his homework and needs help. Just because the baby cant feed himself. Maybe the child with the homework is mad about it and complaince that the parents dont care about him, but it is what it is and you have to deal with it.
Funny is that grown men sometimes act like childs, thats why i made this example.

If players want more attention about to get bugs fixed, there are 2 options im thinking off right now.

1. Donate a lot of money, so they can fix the problem you want to be fixed. They could hire a person for that money to care about it.
2. You could learn programming, master it (what could take a few decades) and help them for free.

Every day i see this kind of discussions and it can be tiring, but i also understand that people are angry. I also was in that position, but please start to act calm. Give the developers time and maybe mention bugs over and over again, so that they dont get forgotten.
Thats all you can do.

My post targets the whole thread not only the quote.

"

bennisen wrote:

2. You could learn programming, master it (what could take a few decades) and help them for free.

I agree with points made, but just want to highlight how impossibly difficult this statement is.
GGG would have an internal process, developers work on sections of the code, then continually merge into the main block of code. If there are conflicts, they deal with them internally. All updates need to be tested, to an extent given the timeframe.
It's extremely difficult to have some third party agent "helping" write code. It then just adds another layer of complexity when code merges happen and additional testing.
Then you have the accountability, if you came in and wrote some code and it doesn't work and you're not 100% committed by funding and available to fix every block of code you write. Then it just negatively impacts the team cause someone else who was working on something else now has to work on this or decide to discard it.

It's a horrendous scenario, best explained by too many chefs can spoil a broth.
The other common phrase is "If it takes 1 developer 10 days to write this code, surely we could just get 10 developers to write it in a day"
Doesn't work, never seen it work, not sure in what scenario this could work.

"

Jixa87 wrote:

"

bennisen wrote:

2. You could learn programming, master it (what could take a few decades) and help them for free.

I agree with points made, but just want to highlight how impossibly difficult this statement is.
GGG would have an internal process, developers work on sections of the code, then continually merge into the main block of code. If there are conflicts, they deal with them internally. All updates need to be tested, to an extent given the timeframe.
It's extremely difficult to have some third party agent "helping" write code. It then just adds another layer of complexity when code merges happen and additional testing.
Then you have the accountability, if you came in and wrote some code and it doesn't work and you're not 100% committed by funding and available to fix every block of code you write. Then it just negatively impacts the team cause someone else who was working on something else now has to work on this or decide to discard it.

It's a horrendous scenario, best explained by too many chefs can spoil a broth.
The other common phrase is "If it takes 1 developer 10 days to write this code, surely we could just get 10 developers to write it in a day"
Doesn't work, never seen it work, not sure in what scenario this could work.

I meant fixing bugs, not implement new features or change major things. At least its always good to have a helping hand, also in a kitchen. There always small things that have to be done.

"

bennisen wrote:

I meant fixing bugs, not implement new features or change major things.

They aren't mutually exclusive. New features are code, bugs are code that isn't working because of a new feature or a strange interaction between two features.
What if you need to change major things to fix those bugs?
The bugs occur when a specific action, triggers this function, which relies on a function that's likely meant to handle multiple different functions. and in most scenarios it returns the correct value, except if there is packet loss
So then the bug occurs because of a networking issue
There are bugs that occur because of a specific interaction between graphics drivers intefacing with different versions of graphical languages with an incredibly diverse range of graphics card hardware.

It's extremely complex, which goes back to your point

"

bennisen wrote:

Many dont understand how difficult game development is