I hope poe 2 wont be a one core skill spamming game
" If done right, its definitely more dynamic and engaging. If done wrong, its just annoying. Right now I do think the problem with D4's combat is you get very few spenders for the amount of generators you have to do, for one reason or another. Either they cost too much to use more than like 2 times, and/or your buffs/debuffs from the generators dont last long enough to use multiple spenders, because of either cost or wastefulness of some passive/damage boost/etc, which forces you to use more generators even if you dont have to. Right now its just too heavily skewed into generators. I do think it'll be fixed; it was fixed in D3. I think Vanilla D3 had a similar issue from what I remember. I remember getting like 2 shots off on my Demon Hunter and having to build my energy back up. Its just crazy they would have a lot of the same exact issues vanilla D3 did, a decade later. Last edited by Destructodave on Jun 20, 2023, 12:50:59 AM
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" It's not an issue in D4 though, but a feature. That you don't have practically infinite resource is the core of what makes the combat not be a 1-click lawnmower. I mean, I get some people don't like that, but it's not an issue, it's the central concept of the characterbuilding and combat. Last edited by Xyel on Jun 20, 2023, 4:53:10 AM
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" That's why it's shit why do you think most top tier builds have infinite resource spam such as the tornado wolf or whirlwind barb because everything else is awful like that nobody is going to LOL LET ME AUTO ATTACK FOR A BIT to do 3-4 nukes what a terrible design and it's why generator builds in d4 suck. Dys an sohm Rohs an kyn Sahl djahs afah Mah morn narr Last edited by Coconutdoggy on Jun 20, 2023, 5:20:15 AM
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" Which gives the game a nice progression, as the builds become increasingly more powerful with level and (specific) items, which makes it fun to make builds and progress them through the game, and the progression isn't just a bigger number, but actually playing differently. Just like in PoE, where one league starts with a very different build than what one ends the league with - one does not leaguestart with an omniscience + headhunter build, but it sure is fun to progress into it and to finish with it. | |
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Progression aside, the issue is more that people are used to the fact that one-button builds absolutely dominate in Path of Exile right now. The nature of the game's current gem system demands it - only two-handed weapon builds can regularly afford to have two skills, and even those more often simply have a single primary "point and shoot" skill while using the second potential 6L as a collection of utility crap instead. True multi-button builds, where the character has different attacks for different situations and uses them as the needs of the moment dictate, are VERY rare in Path of Exile because there's almost no way to make those builds even just equivalent to One Button Lawnmowers.
The reality is that One Button builds and Multi Button Builds have the same fundamental resource - time. You can only ever do one thing* at a time. The One Button Build chooses to do the same thing with its time, every time. The Multi Button Build has different things it can do with its time. But if the MBB's multiple things are individually no stronger than the OBB's single thing, the MBB is not stronger than the OBB. It just has more things it can do. The only exception to this is triggers, and it's why triggers have been both enormously popular and super problematic for Grinding Gear since forever. Triggers break the time resource and let you do more than one thing at a time, and nine full 6L's worth of skill slots will allow for some real hijinks with trigger gems. That's why I fully expect trigger gems to get a massive rebuild when Path of Exile 2 launches, with fully autonomous stuff like Cast When Damage Taken being heavily "adjusted" (read: nerfed shitless) to account for the massively expanded gem access PoE2 gives players. Trigger gems like Cast While Channeling or Cast On Crit that require you to do Specific Thing A to get Specific Trigger B will be fine - those have to exist within a single linkset anyways, they trade effectiveness from Thing A for the benefits of Trigger B, and they cannot benefit from the extra gem access of PoE2. But generic triggers that can function without needing to be attached to an existing skill, like CWDT, Mark on Hit, or a variety of item effects? Expect those to be heavily curtailed. My poor Lioneye's Paws will no longer be the perfect build-enabling utility trigger skill it's been for a few leagues now. The number of archer's lives simplified by having a Hextouch>[Curse]>Maim/Combustion/Whatever>Culling Strike Rain of Arrows that triggered whenever you used any of your regular bow skills will never be fully appreciated by non-archers. I salute you, Lioneye's Feeties, and I will miss you when you are gone. | |
" As some other, handsome guy pointed out in another thread: When we discuss the "one-click" state of PoE, it's very important to mention flasks. Flasks have - for the longest time - been VERY powerful, and have required a fair bit of attention when it comes to gameplay. A build requiring 3-4 skills to function, in addition to having to manage 5 flasks is just too much, at least for me. Maybe I just speak for myself here, but up until the new flask currency were introduced, my left hand rested on the flask keys on the keyboard. After those currencies got introduced, I have actually been utilizing more skills into my builds. But you are right; PoE's skills system, where you "need" support gems for your auras, your movement skills and your whatnot, in addition to only having one six-link on a lot of builds, the need, encouragement of the free gem slots just aren't there. It's BETTER after the flask rework, and I think it will even better after the skill system rework. A "several button build" should have a higher potential than a "one button build", but a "one button build" should still work fine with some investment. IMO, at least. Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you.
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Flasks are a good point, though I'm not entirely sure how many people chose to carefully deploy specific flasks according to the needs of the moment. Even multi-button preferrers like me generally just hammer all the buttons at once whenever something hits me hard enough. Optimal, maybe not, but considering that virtually everybody on the forum just sets their flasks to "Use when reach full charges" and forgets their flasks exist? I'm not sure I hundred-percent buy flasks being equivalent to skills.
My sincere hope is that the new design space opened up by the improved skill system allows for the development of more skills that have unique interactions with each other. Stuff like Flame Wall igniting projectiles that move through it, or the Contagion/Essence Drain combo (except maybe just a wee little bit more nuanced than that one, mebbe?). I'm not saying we'll see D:OS-level interactivity between skills, other skills, and the environment, but we could see more interactivity. To say nothing of characters actually being able to use stuff like Elemental Equilibrium or Trinity Support in ways that feel more natural by combining skills rather than trying to flumbizzle a single button into somehow pulling it all off. Heck, imagine a Path of Exile where Flame Surge isn't (strictly) a sad bad meme! One-button enjoyers can still unobutton their way through Path of Exile. The rest of us can start doing cool Combo Shit, or even just having different skills for different roles again. I'm old enough I remember the days when most melee builds had a 5L/6L for killing bosses and a separate 4L tuned for clearing packs, and skills that could effectively do both were in scarce supply. Nowadays a skill's considered terrible to the point of unusable if it can't explode an entire screen at once while simultaenously clearing 20M Pinnacle DPS. Not gonna lie - if that statement becomes false somehow, I won't shed many tears. I have no reason to suspect it ever will be false, but I could go back to the days where you had to try and make choices in a build. | |
" That makes me wonder. If D4 is a success right now b/c it sold a lot of copies, if at the Q3 meeting at Actiblizz the c suite says they're disappointed with sales, does that make it a failure? |
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" Perhaps, if they expected more units sold. I doubt that is the case, but it all depends on how they defined success. Without a doubt, they sold as many or more units than they projected, and it was a resounding success for them. | |
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We're probably going to see a lot of AoE and single target gameplay again. Since we're not going to have 1 6-Link providing as much AoE single target damage as a 4-Link single target skill.
There would need to be a pretty radical redesign of how skills and mana work in this game to make it more than that. |
