Convince me Stash tab "MTX" is not pay to win

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kuciol wrote:

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allionus wrote:

Let's just stick to using "ADVANTAGE" instead of the euphemism "CONVENIENT" - and then see how far that whole 'f2p defense' flies.

The same. At some point you are simply expected to pay for a product. F2P doesnt mean free of charge forever. Anybody above age 20 understads this.

How is buying stash tabs for 30-40$ any different then buying dlc for 50? Or a game for 60? Singular payment is not pay to win. Its just a price.

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allionus wrote:

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Vennto wrote:

So, I won´t go over the whole thread reading 16 pages. But as far as I understand OP´s initial thought it boils down to this, correct me if I am wrong:

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If you don't understand that TIME SAVED = VALUE GAINED in the game's economy, you need to do things I won't do for you, like understand what the game is and how it works, etc.

So your argument of "P2W" derives from the idea that with stash tabs you safe time in a trade-environment, therefore being more effective than others when every other variable is the same, right?

1. Your whole economic argument falls short in every SSF-Environment. People buy stash tabs as well while not engaging in trade, for the pure convenience. If you argue that they are Pay2win and your argument is focussed on the trade-advantages of stash-tabs then it still only focusses on a part of the game.

2. The biggest flaw of the "p2w"-Argument has been mentioned once I think, I don´t recall an answer to it, maybe it helps if I frame and explain it in a different way:

Your argument sais "if every other variant is equal, stash tabs do XX". Well, that´s an argument from ignorance and could be done with literally anything, because whatever formula u put together, once you only have one variable and with the rest being held constant, it of course becomes the most relevant. That doesn´t speak to the relevance of it in general.

For economic success in SC Trade there are a lot of relevant factors, here´s which one I can come up with from the top of my head:

1. Time-investment
2. Game knowledge
3. Build-knowledge
4. Ability to adapt
5. Knowledge about PoB and how to effectively value character-performance
6. Mechanical skill
7. Knowledge about the trade-environment
8. Seeing market-opportunities and developments
9. Gameplay-Effectiveness
10. Use of 3rd game tools (awk. poe trade, chaos recipe enhancer, lab-compass...)
11. used hardware
12. risk-aversion vs. risk-affinity
13. Team vs. solo play

All of those variants, and for the sake of the argument add "14. stash tabs", play a relevant role when it comes to how much currency people can make. you can´t just ignore all that just to make a point. The question this begs is clearly how much do stash tabs really do?

And, you might be surprised, but I agree partly here, I woulnd´t miss them for the world. That is because of the way I farm though. I know in fact there are reliable, effective and very profitable farming strategies that do not require any stash tabs at all. For example guardian-maps into invitations into maven. Setting up a normal tab with 4 maps in a row, adding the invitation on it, most important drops are further mapsand the maven splinters, which do not require a stash tab at all. So you ALSO need to take into account the content people opt to interact with. Delve is another content you could probably do without any meaningful impact of stashtabs. If you farm tons of fragments, essences, general maps or simulacrum with content from literally any other league-mechanic then stashtab-organisation becomes far more valuable. By this point u have to realize this is getting a ghost-chase for any objective answer.

So falling back on my own experience: I bought my stash tabs (literally all of them) in my second league. Back then I made roughly 10ex over the course of a league. The following league I made 40, the following I made 200 and now I am making 1-3 mirrors per league, while shortening my time-investment by each league. Stash-tabs did not change, but my income increased, depending on the mirror-price, 50- to 100fold.

Pay2win for me is, not even taking it too literal, a tool that improves the performance I am able to do in a game by a meaningful amount in which others, who not use the same tools, have a hard time catching/keeping up. In PoE, this is not the case. All the other variables I mentioned above play a much more important role when it comes to currency-potential than the stash-tabs do. They do help, no doubt about it. But they are mostly convenience. If your argument for p2w is that everything that helps even in the tiniest margin, then you are right. Tey are p2w. If you however, like me, compare their influence to other variables that influence economic powergain, then it is by no means p2w. I´ve played other games where you literally collect game money to sell it for paysafe cards, as the RL-money-part had become so crucial to the further optimization of your character or your gear that you would fall behind without it. PoE by no means falls into the same category. Based on this fact I hardly can agree to a p2w-defitinion of stashtabs.

To really boil down the sole counter argument needed into one sentence for refuting all you said, I'll say this -

EVERYTHING ELSE being constant (this is the main part, otherwise it is a compromised test), the addition of Premium, "Pay to access" storage space creates ADVANTAGE for the buyer, compared to the non-buyer. Also, anecdotes and personal opinions on "what is p2w" is not passable as a valid argument.

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Arcturus_Blake wrote:

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Vennto wrote:

So, I won´t go over the whole thread reading 16 pages. But as far as I understand OP´s initial thought it boils down to this, correct me if I am wrong:

"

If you don't understand that TIME SAVED = VALUE GAINED in the game's economy, you need to do things I won't do for you, like understand what the game is and how it works, etc.

So your argument of "P2W" derives from the idea that with stash tabs you safe time in a trade-environment, therefore being more effective than others when every other variable is the same, right?

1. Your whole economic argument falls short in every SSF-Environment. People buy stash tabs as well while not engaging in trade, for the pure convenience. If you argue that they are Pay2win and your argument is focussed on the trade-advantages of stash-tabs then it still only focusses on a part of the game.

2. The biggest flaw of the "p2w"-Argument has been mentioned once I think, I don´t recall an answer to it, maybe it helps if I frame and explain it in a different way:

Your argument sais "if every other variant is equal, stash tabs do XX". Well, that´s an argument from ignorance and could be done with literally anything, because whatever formula u put together, once you only have one variable and with the rest being held constant, it of course becomes the most relevant. That doesn´t speak to the relevance of it in general.

For economic success in SC Trade there are a lot of relevant factors, here´s which one I can come up with from the top of my head:

1. Time-investment
2. Game knowledge
3. Build-knowledge
4. Ability to adapt
5. Knowledge about PoB and how to effectively value character-performance
6. Mechanical skill
7. Knowledge about the trade-environment
8. Seeing market-opportunities and developments
9. Gameplay-Effectiveness
10. Use of 3rd game tools (awk. poe trade, chaos recipe enhancer, lab-compass...)
11. used hardware
12. risk-aversion vs. risk-affinity
13. Team vs. solo play

All of those variants, and for the sake of the argument add "14. stash tabs", play a relevant role when it comes to how much currency people can make. you can´t just ignore all that just to make a point. The question this begs is clearly how much do stash tabs really do?

And, you might be surprised, but I agree partly here, I woulnd´t miss them for the world. That is because of the way I farm though. I know in fact there are reliable, effective and very profitable farming strategies that do not require any stash tabs at all. For example guardian-maps into invitations into maven. Setting up a normal tab with 4 maps in a row, adding the invitation on it, most important drops are further mapsand the maven splinters, which do not require a stash tab at all. So you ALSO need to take into account the content people opt to interact with. Delve is another content you could probably do without any meaningful impact of stashtabs. If you farm tons of fragments, essences, general maps or simulacrum with content from literally any other league-mechanic then stashtab-organisation becomes far more valuable. By this point u have to realize this is getting a ghost-chase for any objective answer.

So falling back on my own experience: I bought my stash tabs (literally all of them) in my second league. Back then I made roughly 10ex over the course of a league. The following league I made 40, the following I made 200 and now I am making 1-3 mirrors per league, while shortening my time-investment by each league. Stash-tabs did not change, but my income increased, depending on the mirror-price, 50- to 100fold.

Pay2win for me is, not even taking it too literal, a tool that improves the performance I am able to do in a game by a meaningful amount in which others, who not use the same tools, have a hard time catching/keeping up. In PoE, this is not the case. All the other variables I mentioned above play a much more important role when it comes to currency-potential than the stash-tabs do. They do help, no doubt about it. But they are mostly convenience. If your argument for p2w is that everything that helps even in the tiniest margin, then you are right. Tey are p2w. If you however, like me, compare their influence to other variables that influence economic powergain, then it is by no means p2w. I´ve played other games where you literally collect game money to sell it for paysafe cards, as the RL-money-part had become so crucial to the further optimization of your character or your gear that you would fall behind without it. PoE by no means falls into the same category. Based on this fact I hardly can agree to a p2w-defitinion of stashtabs.

it's funny how your reply has 0 arguments against the post

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allionus wrote:

The model PRECISELY REVOLVES AROUND the idea that "provide a good player experience without placing PAY-HURDLES, and enough players will BUY things that DO NOT influence their winnings from the game in ANY WAY, and we will remain operational if not MASSIVELY profitable (dota2)"

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Jivabien wrote:

PoE is not a F2P, it is a Free 2 try. You want play more, you need stash. fair enough. It's not a P2W though

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awesome999 wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Here's my summary of this whole thread! First a little context, I can't be bothered to read the whole thread, sorry. I read the opening post and then the first post made in response. Shagsbeard stated it depends on one's definition of P2W. I suspect the OP is not convinced of anything by anything anyone said and does not even accept the plain truth of Shagsbeard wisdom bestowed on us at the beginning of this thread.

So how close was I to a good summary?

OP explained the definition before he began. People changing the definition of words and attacking that premise is ermmm being human beings... P2W doesn't mean winning literally. P2W is used in gaming with the meaning "Pay to Win" to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities that give them an advantage in the game, over other players or NPCs.

1. P2W = Pay for in-game advantages or benefits.
2. GGG sell stash tabs in POE
3. Stash tabs are in-game advantages

Conclusion: POE is P2W.

It is valid argument. No matter how miniscule, it's still considered pay to win. People are upset about someone claiming their favorite game is P2W.

Microtransactions are necessary evil for that payment model. Companies trying so hard to convince people microtransactions are ethical is a placebo or sugarpill. It make people feel better.