Resistance needs to be converted to resistance rating

"

Silty wrote:

"

DoubleSmiggins wrote:

Fixed damage reduction could also work, and I feel that it'd be pretty easy to balance and understand.

I think that damage varies too wildly for it to work in its simplest form. You have mobs hitting for 200 damage, and mobs hitting for 1000 damage but several times slower. You'd either have to balance around armor that makes you invulnerable to 200 damage, or armor that hardly affects 1000 damage.

Then again, you could have fixed damage reduction with diminishing returns after 50%. So 300 damage reduction would only take partial effect and reduce 200 damage to something like 50, while taking full effect on 1000 damage and reducing it to 700.


But personally, I fail to see the problem with Diablo 2 style resistance penalties. Why not move the armor system to % physical resistance, and balance it with per-difficulty penalties?

Oh look 2 20% physical damage resistance rings. I now don;t care about ever upgrading them because they're JUST THAT GOOD

There's a REASON they use a rating based armor system, because rating based is SUPERIOR to flat % resists from a balancing standpoint.

"

Autocthon wrote:

Oh look 2 20% physical damage resistance rings. I now don;t care about ever upgrading them because they're JUST THAT GOOD

That's what the resistance penalties per difficulty are for. You'll get higher physical damage resistance mods as you get higher level, but you'll also take more penalties as you go up in difficulty.

"

Silty wrote:

"

Autocthon wrote:

Oh look 2 20% physical damage resistance rings. I now don;t care about ever upgrading them because they're JUST THAT GOOD

That's what the resistance penalties per difficulty are for. You'll get higher physical damage resistance mods as you get higher level, but you'll also take more penalties as you go up in difficulty.

Resistace penalties based on difficulty isn't good design.

It's just an excuse to use flat resistances. And RATINGS do everything those penalties do (and more most of the time).

Ratings>Flat resistances

From a design standpoint, from a balancing standpoint, and from a gameplay standpoint.

"

Autocthon wrote:

Resistace penalties based on difficulty isn't good design.

People keep repeating that, but I've yet to hear a convincing argument for it.

On the other hand, the main argument for % resistances is clarity - you know you'll always resist 62% damage if you have 62% damage resistance. It's not calculus or rocket science, it's just a simple and clear % number that anyone can understand.

Conversely, optimizing for the current damage reduction system is confusing and extremely opaque, because you don't know how much damage mobs can deal, so you won't know how effective your armor is.

"

Silty wrote:

"

Autocthon wrote:

Resistace penalties based on difficulty isn't good design.

People keep repeating that, but I've yet to hear a convincing argument for it.

On the other hand, the main argument for % resistances is clarity - you know you'll always resist 62% damage if you have 62% damage resistance. It's not calculus or rocket science, it's just a simple and clear % number that anyone can understand.

Conversely, optimizing for the current damage reduction system is confusing and extremely opaque, because you don't know how much damage mobs can deal, so you won't know how effective your armor is.

More armor is still always better than less anyway.

You don;t WANT penalties to be bad design, so even if I had empirical proof of how they negatively effect the game you'd very likely dismiss it as not convincing.

At the end of the day I'm 100% for converting resistances to work exactly (other than exact formula) like armor. It makes bosses always scary, and lets you make weaker enemies non-issues if you focus well enough. And since they take an affix slot to get it it makes optimizing resistances more dynamic.

The problem with %res for me is that either it trivializes even bosses (think 75% cold resist against merveil in normal) or it becomes absolutely required to even survive one hit (chain freezing from chatters at times). There is no in-between. Reducing resists based on difficulty is an artificial band-aid fix so that the bosses aren't immediately trivial even after you enter the next difficulty up.

How many % resist games came out in the last yearish? Skyrim. Am I forgetting any? And Skyrim is MEANT for you to become godlike at endgame. The whole point of Dovahkiin.

"

Autocthon wrote:

More armor is still always better than less anyway.

Until you try and weigh bonus armor against bonus life, at which point it gets very confusing. Weighing bonus life against bonus % resistances is much easier, in my opinion. Do you disagree about this?

"

Autocthon wrote:

You don;t WANT penalties to be bad design

That could be it, after all I play hardcore.

"

Autocthon wrote:

so even if I had empirical proof of how they negatively effect the game you'd very likely dismiss it as not convincing.

Go ahead, I'm listening.

"

Autocthon wrote:

The problem with %res for me is that either it trivializes even bosses (think 75% cold resist against merveil in normal) or it becomes absolutely required to even survive one hit (chain freezing from chatters at times). There is no in-between. Reducing resists based on difficulty is an artificial band-aid fix so that the bosses aren't immediately trivial even after you enter the next difficulty up.

I guess you're right. Once you get to around 50-60% resistance, each additional % of resistance has a huge impact on the amount of damage you take. When really, it should be the other way around.

Maybe resistance should work the other way around - % is added to 100% rather than subtracted. So 75% resistance would mean your damage is divided by 175%, 100% resistance would divide damage by a factor of two, 200% by a factor of three, and so forth.

"

Autocthon wrote:

How many % resist games came out in the last yearish?

Part of the point of Path of Exile is to reverse the recent negative trends in the industry. Copying recent games isn't the best idea, for this reason.

I've seen that second to last system a couple of times in games before. What it would do here is make it very easy to get a little bit of resistance (150% - that is, getting 50 resist points) would give you 33% elemental resist), but more difficult to max out (if we're still getting to 75% resist, one would need to get 300 resist points.) It seems good to me and is an easy system for the game to directly convert into a percentage value, making it easier to understand...

Well, I guess I feel the point of this thread now is for the devs to have a look at all this discussion, look at the points that have been raised and try something out. As things are now, they can't really stay because it doesn't work right.

The way (many of) you guys talk, I hope this thread is totally overlooked by the devs. All the name calling and shit. The attitude in this forum isn't really making me want to support PoE. It feels exactly like reading a WoW forum and if that was the last game in the world I wouldn't touch it with that kind of players.


I even saw a mod in here? Please do a better job at taking out the trash, so those of us that doesn't like trolls want to stay.

/rant

"

Autocthon wrote:

The problem with %res for me is that either it trivializes even bosses (think 75% cold resist against merveil in normal) or it becomes absolutely required to even survive one hit (chain freezing from chatters at times). There is no in-between. Reducing resists based on difficulty is an artificial band-aid fix so that the bosses aren't immediately trivial even after you enter the next difficulty up.

That has nothing to do with it being percent based. This was already covered back on something like page six. It's not a flaw with percentage vs rating. It has nothing at all to do with that.

Both % and rating have the same problem. If you have a whole bunch, the boss is easy. If you have none, it's hard. It doesn't matter if you call it rating or not.

"

dahoon wrote:

The way (many of) you guys talk, I hope this thread is totally overlooked by the devs. All the name calling and shit. The attitude in this forum isn't really making me want to support PoE. It feels exactly like reading a WoW forum and if that was the last game in the world I wouldn't touch it with that kind of players.


I even saw a mod in here? Please do a better job at taking out the trash, so those of us that doesn't like trolls want to stay.

/rant

I do have to agree with you, but not all of it has been trashtalk, some good points have been raised. They're what need to be acted on.