Feedback and Suggestions (Path of Exile 1) - Jeweler's Orbs and Orbs Of Fusing - enough is enough! - Forum

" dust7 wrote: " Undon3 wrote: " dust7 wrote: I remember Chris saying a guaranteed 6l recipe would come at around 1500 fusings at least. Are you ready for this? This will not work, you can buy a 6L (most probably of your desired item) for much lower than this ;) What items could you buy with 55 Exalts? Well... anything? That's the point. You can eliminate bad luck, but it costs you vastly more fusings than you need for a 6L on average. No, the point is that such a recipe will just be useless, because the market offers better alternatives. Hence, a better recipe, that will actually be used, is needed. gl buying your perfectly rolled 6l endgame unique (on one with at least some variable stats) for 55 exalted. will not happen ever Last edited by SVD#6236 on Mar 19, 2013, 4:34:31 PM	Posted by SVD#6236 on Mar 19, 2013, 4:34:10 PM Quote this Post
" raz0r_boy wrote: " Undon3 wrote: No, the point is that such a recipe will just be useless, because the market offers better alternatives. Hence, a better recipe, that will actually be used, is needed. No, what IS needed is for people to understand the damn meaning of RNG, and take the consequances of their choices like adults, instead of whining that stuff is broken..when in the end, they're the ones who messed up in not assesing what their action would result in. No, what is needed is that this game does not have this much RNG. D2 didn't have half the RNG this game has and it is still a much better game.	Posted by Torin#1843 on Mar 19, 2013, 6:17:24 PM Quote this Post
Making 5L or 6L easy to obtain would take a big fun factor out of the game. As for now i think 6L are already too frequent, there should be less of these, and skill builds should NOT require 6L. 6L should only be sort of extra good addition to the skill build, something that would be extremely valuable. The whole game idea is building and perfectionism, if you can get it relatively easily or/and you are certain to get it, it becomes worthless. Making the best stuff relatively easy to obtain would defeat the purpose of the game.	Posted by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013, 6:43:47 PM
tldr but if it's about people complaining about not getting their 6 links and shit just uninstall	Posted by RedEarSlider#4044 on Mar 19, 2013, 6:47:11 PM Quote this Post
" Skyfruit wrote: Making 5L or 6L easy to obtain would take a big fun factor out of the game. As for now i think 6L are already too frequent, there should be less of these, and skill builds should NOT require 6L. 6L should only be sort of extra good addition to the skill build, something that would be extremely valuable. The whole game idea is building and perfectionism, if you can get it relatively easily or/and you are certain to get it, it becomes worthless. Making the best stuff relatively easy to obtain would defeat the purpose of the game. Every time one of these threads pop up (which is about every single day), one or two people always defend the status quo of these orbs because they misunderstand that something isn't broken if it's too hard, but rather something is broken because it's too easy or too unfair. Usually these suggestions/feedback on fusings and jewelers have very little to do with moving the median amount of orbs needed for 5L or 6L, instead proposing to make modification so that it isn't so wildly random, but why do people keep banging their head against the wall saying we're asking for something else. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT RARITY OR DIFFICULTY. STOP BUILDING STRAW MEN. I'm in favor of making it just as hard if not much harder if we had some determinism. In other words, if it takes anywhere between 1 to INFINITY fusing to get what you want and the average happens to be 1200 or whatever, go ahead and make it 3k or 5k fusings (depending on relation to linked item drop rarity) to make 6L, thus making it RARER and everyone will be happy because we AGREE that it shouldn't be easy like it is now when luck/chance/RNG/casino-wraeclast. As it stands, most people will not use fusing orbs their marginal utility is often negative. Last edited by jeois#3290 on Mar 19, 2013, 8:20:13 PM	Posted by jeois#3290 on Mar 19, 2013, 8:19:30 PM Quote this Post
" dust7 wrote: " FadeXF wrote: There should be 2 methods: the current "gamblers" method - and then a "guaranteed" method. The guaranteed method should cost a shit ton of materials... but that option should be made available. I remember Chris saying a guaranteed 6l recipe would come at around 1500 fusings at least. Are you ready for this? Even if GGG decide to add the "guaranteed method", I don't think this should be it. It's a simple "solution" that doesn't work at all. It doesn't take away RNG, it just adds a "cap" to get a 5L-6L. This doesn't change the core mechanic of the "RNG-based fusing/jewelling" at all. I think there should be a system that allows you to steadily improve your sockets/links. Each fusing/jeweller/new orb/whatever should add a tiny bit of progress towards your "crafted gear". Thus, when you spend a lot of these, your crafted gear will be very very valuable; but if you spend little, it won't be that valuable, but at least better than before. In another way, make it so that you can improve it, but it needs effort. If you want to improve a 2L to a 3L, it should take little currency and little effort, but be "guaranteed" If you want to improve a 5L to a 6L, it should take a lot of currency and a lot of effort, but be "guaranteed" If you want to improve a 2L to a 6L, it should take EVEN HIGHER CURRENCY and EVEN HIGHER EFFORT, but be "guaranteed" Makes sense right? Here's a suggestion I made in another thread (it doesn't exactly model the above scenario, but it tries to): " Maybe have a "New Green socket" and a "New Blue socket" orbs, or just a "New random socket" orb, I am not sure (or maybe all of them at the same time!). Although I think what I said earlier about them would work. Again, these Socket Orbs have levels ... Maybe one Orb can be like this: New Green Socket Orb: Level 1: Adds G socket to (G) evasion gear Level 2: Adds G socket to (R),(B) evasion gear; to (G) hybrid evasion gear Level 3: Adds G socket to (R),(B) hybrid evasion gear; to (G) non-evasion gear Level 4: Adds G socket to (G G) evasion gear; to (R),(B) non-evasion gear Level 5: Adds G socket to (G R), (G B) evasion gear; (G G) hybrid-evasion gear Level 6: Adds G socket to (G-G) evasion gear; (G R), (G B) hybrid-evasion gear, (G G) non-evasion gear ... Level 15: Adds G socket to (G-G-G-G-G) evasion gear;... ... Level 20: Adds G socket to (R-R-R-R-R), (B-B-B-B-B), etc non-evasion gear;... Something like that would work right? It takes gear bias into account, it takes the "strength" of the links into account as well. So to get a new green socket in a (B-R) non-evasion gear should require a higher level than to get it into a (G-G) evasion gear. I mean, if you want to use this to get a 5L or 6L from scratch, you need a lot of high-level orbs of these wouldn't you? And getting one of these orbs to level 20 should not be easy either (kind of like Skill gems, although I'm not that sure if those are easy to level up to lvl 20 or not) Same could be done to "Linking" orbs that create a link between sockets. It could also take into account all of these: -Number of sockets -Gear bias -Which exact color of sockets you are linking For instance, linking two green sockets in a (G G R) evasion gear would require less level than linking the green and red ones (again taking gear bias into account), etc. The next one would be the "Coloring" orb that can change the color of 1 socket to anyone you want. Or rather there's a "Blue Coloring" orb that changes a non-blue socket to blue, a "Red Coloring" one and a "Green Coloring" one Again, just as the "New Green Socket" orb, it would take number of sockets, gear bias, etc all of that into account to determine which level you need that orb to have before using it! The premise is that these orbs can level up just as skill gems do. Therefore, the "effort" needed to be able to get a 6L is not based on RNG (both on getting a high amount of fusings from drops, and getting the 6L from the fusings), but is actually guaranteed (if you level up the orb to lvl 20, you can transform your 6S 5L into 6L). However, there may even be MORE effort required (levelling stuff to lvl 20 is not and should not be easy), and it doesn't take away the "sense of excitement" (like some people said would disappear if you removed RNG from fusings/jewellers/chroms). I mean, it's always exciting to "level up" stuff isn't it? Whether it's your toon, skill gems, or other stuff in other games. Leveling up orbs will be as much fun as well, you KNOW you are one step closer to get your desired 6L, and you accomplished that by your own effort and work (i.e grinding enough to make it gain that level) It's not perfect though, but it's a start for me (and it got no feedback ;_; )	Posted by gonzaw#3022 on Mar 19, 2013, 8:33:24 PM Quote this Post
" jeois wrote: Every time one of these threads pop up (which is about every single day), one or two people always defend the status quo of these orbs because they misunderstand that something isn't broken if it's too hard, but rather something is broken because it's too easy or too unfair. Usually these suggestions/feedback on fusings and jewelers have very little to do with moving the median amount of orbs needed for 5L or 6L, instead proposing to make modification so that it isn't so wildly random, but why do people keep banging their head against the wall saying we're asking for something else. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT RARITY OR DIFFICULTY. STOP BUILDING STRAW MEN. I'm in favor of making it just as hard if not much harder if we had some determinism. In other words, if it takes anywhere between 1 to INFINITY fusing to get what you want and the average happens to be 1200 or whatever, go ahead and make it 3k or 5k fusings (depending on relation to linked item drop rarity) to make 6L, thus making it RARER and everyone will be happy because we AGREE that it shouldn't be easy like it is now when luck/chance/RNG/casino-wraeclast. As it stands, most people will not use fusing orbs their marginal utility is often negative. But in mathematical sense it will be either completely random like it is now or it will have a some sort of hierarchical formula where people will quickly figure out how to optimise it for best return and than the 5L and 6L will flood and become worthless. It always happens in games with high value items. There's really only 2 ways of doing it, either everything or nothing. This is one those things that cannot be balanced. So i rather have something to OCD for and not getting the best quickly and than loose all interest in the game. How many examples of such a games do you need more? How many RPGs have you already played, got everything and don't play them anymore?	Posted by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013, 8:43:06 PM
" gonzaw wrote: It's not perfect though, but it's a start for me (and it got no feedback ;_; ) Ok I'll give you feedback. I have stated this before, RNG is only good if the player can observe different outcomes in a realistic amount of time. Anything under 5% is in the realm of lottery. That's why wild mages in D&D proc their whacko stuff at 1% and have 5% crit on their staff. So how do we introduce RNG in your concept (gem level): Random vendor recipe. Gems are graded in these levels: worthless - break all links chipped - at least 1 2l or better flawed - at least 1 3l or better normal - 4l or better flawless - 5l or 6l perfect - 6l Give 3 gems to the vendor and they will give 1 gems back with level range from -1 to +1 of the gem given. For example: 3 worthless gems: 66.6% for a worthless gem 33.3% for a chipped one. 3 flawless gems: equal chances for a normal, flawless or a perfect one. This split the rolls into smaller steps, giving players the feeling of progress. Please pardon my bad english	Posted by rephikul#3337 on Mar 19, 2013, 8:53:56 PM Quote this Post
" Skyfruit wrote: But in mathematical sense it will be either completely random like it is now or it will have a some sort of hierarchical formula where people will quickly figure out how to optimise it for best return and than the 5L and 6L will flood and become worthless. It always happens in games with high value items. There's really only 2 ways of doing it, either everything or nothing. This is one those things that cannot be balanced. So i rather have something to OCD for and not getting the best quickly and than loose all interest in the game. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but that's just completely wrong. There are plenty of suggestions that aren't "everything or nothing", as you put it. For instance, if 6L takes an average of 1200 fusings right now, and you increase the average to 3000 needed (while still having an element of RNG but not as purely random), how in the world will that make 6L worthless? Even if people figure out the formula, it doesn't change the fact that they need to get 3000 fusings. It would be rarer and less common. Also, the current mechanic allows you to get 6L very quickly, so a better question would be, would you quit the game when you get 6L in an hour as opposed to someone who got it after grinding for weeks?	Posted by jeois#3290 on Mar 19, 2013, 9:00:31 PM Quote this Post
Ehmm....if 6L takes 3000 fusings (or just 1500 fusings) I'd never, and I mean never even try to get a 6L. That's just too much bro. I have 7 fusings right now :(	Posted by gonzaw#3022 on Mar 19, 2013, 9:05:15 PM Quote this Post