About gender locked classes

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Phrazz wrote:

While you're trying to "disguise" this as a "small deal", it does shine through that it's pretty important to you, as you'll keep "favoring the north/north-east side of the tree" (might just be my interpretation, arrest me here if I'm wrong). Not shaming you here, each to their own and all that. I get the request/wish, and I see nothing wrong with them adding it. What I don't get, is the resist of buying such an option. Both you and me, an many others have spent a lot on this game, and bought several things we never had a real passion about. Now you might have a chance of supporting GGG with a purchase you actually CARE about, and that will enrich your game A LOT, as you'll get access to the whole passive tree.

As I see it, gender options is (indirectly) the largest expansion pack you could ever get. Is it the principle? "This SHOULD be in the game, hence I won't pay for it"? Fair enough, I guess. But you have to agree - on some level - that this is kind of an obvious chance for GGG to make a valuable, non-P2W MTX?

Fair enough. I don't particularly like the tone folks're taking with it, but I suppose I should really be more used to that than I am.

I suppose for me, it's mostly the idea of Grinding Gear holding this option hostage behind a nasty paywall. It's the same thing people have been hissing and spitting about on premium stash tabs since forever - "this paid content is super important to me, it's more than just a cosmetic dealie, and I really kinda hate that I have to shell out cash for it". In many cases those folks have been told to shut their cakeholes and just buy a premium tab, primarily because they always couch their arguments in terms of PEE TWO DUBBLEYOU and screech to the rafters about how Grinding Gear is an evil satanic money-vampire overlord for daring to force them to sink ten dollars into a set of tabs. Those guys are overblown nitwits, but honestly? After this thread I understand the core argument more.

The people who're enjoying taking shots at me so far tell me I should be perfectly willing to pay sixty bucks a shot for these MTX options if they become available. Let's examine that.

We'll assume the gender reskin costs between thirty and sixty dollars, because Grinding Gear no longer releases MTX options that cost less than thirty dollars. A full set of seven gender reskins would thus cost between two hundred and ten to four hundred and twenty dollars. Allow me to restate: a full set of gender reskins could potentially cost four hundred and twenty dollars. For seven character models and voice packs.

I will point out that if another game company asked players to purchase a full and entire game, which would presumably contain significantly more than seven characters and significantly more than seven voice packs, for four hundred and twenty dollars, the Internet would burn that game company at the stake.

Even assuming a more 'reasonable' thirty-dollar price tag however, and assuming that any given player will not likely be interested in the reskins for the characters already of the gender they prefer to play, the cost gets a little obnoxious. A player interested in reskinning the three female characters pays ninety dollars; a player reskinning the four male ones pays a hundred and twenty. Presumably, these skins can only be applied to one particular character at a time, just like everything else in the MTX window. A player is, therefore, paying one and a half to two full games' worth of dosh to temporarily change the model of one character at a time.

Is it so hard to believe that someone might find that to be a poor way to handle it? That someone might decide that doesn't feel good to them, as a consumer? I don't particularly like Grinding Gear's monetization scheme; it's not nearly as horrible as some of the egregious modern cases, but we still have Lewt Boxes, and they still haven't released anything but consumable effects for less than three hundred points in the last two or three years. nevertheless, I bought into it, and I'm not going to stand on a rickety soapbox and say "NO MORE PENNIES EVER AGAIN DX". If they do it, I'll probably buy it.

But maybe Grinding Gear's marketing team would like to know, before they do this, that even the people who'd buy it wouldn't really like doing so. It sucks when you feel forced to do something. That's really the entire crux of the argument.

It sucks when you feel forced to buy something.

People can argue and quibble and call me dirty names over that feeling, and I'm fully aware that no coercion is actually happening, but there it is. Heh, nevertheless. Thanks for being more reasonable about this than many, Phrazz. It has not gone unnoticed and I appreciate the effort.

^ Ironically, you seemingly have ignored the possibility that perhaps you are the one being unreasonable, and not treating GGG fairly.

That somehow GGG is unethical at best, or pervasive, bigoted, ignorance and exploitative at worse in regards to gender issues, and planned mtx.

That's why I mentioned gaslighting. Its 100% unfair imo.

You seem more than willing (at least previously) to fork out cash for armor skins and weapon effects, then when something comes up, that you admittedly feel strongly about, the wallet tightens and you feel offended or slighted in some way.

Its classic victimhood and corporate shaming, when it doesnt even apply.

Lets play this out further to somehting your presumably are not invested in personally. What if GGG offered a mtx that allowed for hair and skin color customization? Would that be racist and culturally insensitive?

Again, no one is attacking you. I myself have never quoted or mentioned you.(until now) I simply disagree with your premise, and I'm equally offended by the notion that if we dont agree with you, or your thoughts on gender identity as mtx, that we are somehow insensitive to related gender isssues and to your personal situation.

Why does everyone keep saying “forced” or “P2W” when speaking of gender skins. It is purely cosmetic and optional like almost everything else in PoE. If you were to buy 1 full starter pack you could get 2 full armour sets and set of stash tabs for the cost. Sure, not the $50+ armour, but cheaper ones on sale aren’t that bad considering once you have it you can reuse it. The cost equates to what an other AAA would cost. Look at any other game with the same business model and skins are always expensive. Skins are for your enjoyment and ego.

To be fair Darth, I have not actually purchased much of anything in the way of MTX skins in the last year or two. Ever since the Tencent acquisition and the realization that the company has given up creative control of the game - whether or not Tencent is currently choosing to exercise that control or not, they absolutely have it - I have been drastically more tightfisted with my dollars. They got a Sunspire supporter pack out of my, but only because absolutely everything in it was entirely in line with my aesthetic, I'm a sucker for hideouts, and I still felt badly about caving in and buying the dumb thing for a couple of months after I did so.

The company has lost the easy trust I once had in them, and while individual people within the company can absolutely still be fine, upstanding individuals, the company as a whole does not get a pass with me anymore. Which is one of the main reasons why I'm trying to discuss this possibility and see if folks really are okay with Grinding Gear tagging a sixty-dollar price tag onto it.

Because even if you don't believe that Grinding Gear is 'unethical at best, or pervasive, ignorant and exploitative at worst', I can absolutely bloody-fuck GUARANTEE that Tencent is 100% every single one of those things, at all times, and several more even worse ones besides. Grinding Gear only gets to make its own decisions for as long as Tencent can't be assed to do it for them, and the way things have been going recently, I can't imagine that will stay the case forever.

There's a larger discussion that needs to be had about Grinding Gear's current MTX pricing schema in general, and until we have that discussion? I'm honestly unsure whether I want them to introduce MTX gender options at their current "one MTX skin is equivalent to a full-priced game" price point.

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1453R wrote:

People can argue and quibble and call me dirty names over that feeling, and I'm fully aware that no coercion is actually happening, but there it is. Heh, nevertheless. Thanks for being more reasonable about this than many, Phrazz. It has not gone unnoticed and I appreciate the effort.

Careful now, calling me reasonable might get you even more quibble :P

My stance is that PoE is one of the best F2P games on the market, and are staying away from all P2W elements. When we within this F2P model are getting the market's best additions in terms of content and patches (at least when it comes to quantity), I find it kind of sad when people are hating on GGG the moment they add a microtransaction people really want, almost as it's more "unethical" of GGG to add microtransactions people want, versus microtransactions they don't want.

But I do at the same time understand the disappointment when they add an MTX you feel should be a core mechanic. If open gender choices were a market standard, I might even have agreed with you. I don't feel it is, though, at least not in these kind of games. As I see it, it's not your adventures in terms of the story, it's the character's adventures. You can't really make the story in PoE "your own", so I honestly feel gender choices are merely cosmetics, hence a good fit for MTX.

But anyhow, I've discussed this as much as I need/want to. Only time will tell how it plays out.

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1453R wrote:

To be fair Darth, I have not actually purchased much of anything in the way of MTX skins in the last year or two. Ever since the Tencent acquisition and the realization that the company has given up creative control of the game - whether or not Tencent is currently choosing to exercise that control or not, they absolutely have it - I have been drastically more tightfisted with my dollars. They got a Sunspire supporter pack out of my, but only because absolutely everything in it was entirely in line with my aesthetic, I'm a sucker for hideouts, and I still felt badly about caving in and buying the dumb thing for a couple of months after I did so.

The company has lost the easy trust I once had in them, and while individual people within the company can absolutely still be fine, upstanding individuals, the company as a whole does not get a pass with me anymore. Which is one of the main reasons why I'm trying to discuss this possibility and see if folks really are okay with Grinding Gear tagging a sixty-dollar price tag onto it.

Because even if you don't believe that Grinding Gear is 'unethical at best, or pervasive, ignorant and exploitative at worst', I can absolutely bloody-fuck GUARANTEE that Tencent is 100% every single one of those things, at all times, and several more even worse ones besides. Grinding Gear only gets to make its own decisions for as long as Tencent can't be assed to do it for them, and the way things have been going recently, I can't imagine that will stay the case forever.

There's a larger discussion that needs to be had about Grinding Gear's current MTX pricing schema in general, and until we have that discussion? I'm honestly unsure whether I want them to introduce MTX gender options at their current "one MTX skin is equivalent to a full-priced game" price point.

Well If we are to believe Chris, Tencent doesn't actually say anything with regards to specifics in game development. Presumably Tencent just cares about the bottom line.


Whether that contributed to the increases in artists and mtx releases, it's hard to say, but with the recent news of PoE2 and Exilecon, its seems reasonable that GGG is trying to offset upfront development costs, and the convention, with consistent mtx work.

That being said, I'm not sure what "discussion" on mtx priceponts and schedule is warranted. To me, the more options, the better.

However, and I've been VERY VOCAL, the absolutely disgusting, cringeworthy themed,loot boxes need to go. They need to die a quick death asap. (Unfortunately they make too much money)

In the end, offering gender choice, as a mtx, seems to me like a reasonable concession for a feature long asked for, and doesnt reflect any sort of intentional exploitation or prejudicial behavior.

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Nishrek wrote:

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Faceman165 wrote:

Yes, letting people choose gender does make sense in a role playing game.

Too bad, that PoE is not a RPG

Uh, it is though. ARPG is a subset of RPG.

What are you even trying to say.

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1453R wrote:

We'll assume the gender reskin costs between thirty and sixty dollars, because Grinding Gear no longer releases MTX options that cost less than thirty dollars. A full set of seven gender reskins would thus cost between two hundred and ten to four hundred and twenty dollars. Allow me to restate: a full set of gender reskins could potentially cost four hundred and twenty dollars. For seven character models and voice packs.

I'm not sure what currency you're talking about, but the USD prices on the shop page certainly don't agree with your assertion. The last MTX added there are well under $30 USD.

So no, let's not assume those prices, because it makes the entire argument sound ridiculous.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

However, and I've been VERY VOCAL, the absolutely disgusting, cringeworthy themed,loot boxes need to go. They need to die a quick death asap. (Unfortunately they make too much money)

That I completely agree with. I also agree with the various government agencies trying to tie loot box systems to gambling laws, because loot boxes are most definitely gambling. You gamble real money for virtual rewards. Any game with gambling elements need to adhere to local gambling laws, much like every other aspect of games. Still, I can grudgingly accept it since it isn't a P2W loot box.

My personal preference would be for laws to become restrictive enough to make it more profitable to remove loot boxes than adhere to them. For example the one time I tried to buy wine online, state law required me to email a copy of my photo ID proving my legal age before the seller was allowed to ship. Absolutely brilliant law that would completely ruin any attempt at loot boxes in games. Can you imagine if GGG was required to verify age the same way a casino is in order to create an account?

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1453R wrote:

The mobile game is pretty much just "Hey...I wonder if this would work?" and them deciding to try it and find out.

I'm simply saying that if Grinding Gear is going to dangle that particular forbidden fruit in front of players for whom it is an important option, charging us the price of several full and complete games to take advantage of it sucks.

I disagree with you on the first part. There is a tremendous amount of money to be made by GGG/Tencent in mobile gaming. I'd expect that over a five year period, the mobile game will be the largest part of their profits. People are addicted to their phones.

I do agree with you on the second point. From professional experience, I would recommend that GGG not ruin their business by relying on "what the market will bear" pricing, and instead try to drive customer loyalty through perceived value of PoE.

Path of Exile is free to play. The MTX and QoL features are not free. The more expensive MTX should be priced at much less than they are now. Maybe GGG doesn't know what GMROI is?

That GGG isn't pre-hyping Black Friday MTX deals, tells me they still have a LOT to learn about about the business side of their business.

This guy, for instance, didn't get to where he is because he charged customers as much as possible:



Perceived Value is where it is at.