Time Capsule from PoE Closed Beta -- a classic PoE vs D3 thread circa 2012

Tagek, I'd encourage you to re-read what I wrote, particularly in regards to the Diablo 3 skill rune changes. Leveling up to gain variations of a skill is not the same as acquiring said variations through gameplay regardless of level. I thought I was fairly straightforward there. Unlocking skills as you level is not and never will be complete freedom so long as we consider what was originally offered (I've explained it enough times I think) but now rescinded due to time constraints. I genuinely pity some of the developers of Diablo 3, because you can see how ambitious they were, and how little time Activision have given them in the end. May 15th, announced smack-bang in the middle of problematic beta testing with wide-spread criticism and balance issues galore. Not good.

I appreciate that the epic storyline is a big draw for you, but I'd also suggest that 'epic storyline' is unfortunately a mask for lacking elements in quite a few big budget games lately. I honestly don't think Path of Exile is relying on that. To put it another way, style over substance. Can you have both? Of course. And those that have both become classics. Those that have only style, rarely do. Those that have substance but not so much style generally become cult hits. And I think PoE is headed in that last direction. It DOES cater to me, and quite a few other people from what I have read and experienced. The reality that my tastes puts me squarely outside of Diablo 3's appeal radar is one I've come to accept and embrace; I'd do so alone if I had to, but PoE makes it very clear I don't.

And I said that Diablo was difficult early on. You died. A lot. Didn't I say that? Diablo 2? It was still a bit of a challenge but nothing on Diablo 1. And these sorts of games have just gotten easier since. Titan Quest was pretty, linear and easy -- but it allowed for incredible character variations thanks to the rudimentary dual-classing. Torchlight on anything but hard is not really challenging, but I really did enjoy it, especially some of the mods. Dungeon Siege III I fell asleep playing.

Diablo 3 Beta is roughly 70% style, 30% substance. I should say 'was', since I haven't played the latest iterations with the skill changes, the removal of the insta-sell item and the changes to scrap material. It was Diablo. I was very excited to try it. And after about the tenth Leoric run, I realised I was doing *runs* in a gaming experience that lasts 2 hours, max. What the heck was wrong with me? Didn't even do that in the Diablo 2 beta, not even in open, where all you had was the Barbarian, limited skills, and up to Bloodraven.

So no, I never said Diablo is easy. Absolutely the opposite, and the same with PoE. I'm only level 17 right now, and still running to use corners to my advantage, doorways, quaffing potions like mad. That's Diablo 1 right there. Not Diablo 2 at *any* point and certainly not Diablo 3 from what I've seen.

I also appreciate the necessity of the end-game and never once said it wasn't important. I just said I don't think it should be the focus of any game, and I don't think any gamer should be subjected to such an experience.

I also appreciate the necessity of the end-game and never once said it wasn't important. I just said I don't think it should be the focus of any game, and I don't think any gamer should be subjected to such an experience.

Well the endgame is what gives diablo 2 and most likely 3 their longevity and is ultimately what made them great games in the eyes of critics and the general player base (including me).

And what you said about runs.. that's exactly what POE consist of. Runs. So I really can't see your point in that regard. In fact, any hack and slash is generally about 'runs'. Sure, games like torchlight give the impression that you're going somewhere new, but really they just recycle the same areas with a slightly different name and enemies.

And your point again, about the difficulty, is still not clear to me. You're saying diablo 1 was hard, diablo 2 was pretty easy, and path of exile is once again on par with diablo 1.
Well I don't know, but I found path of exile to be extremely easy in the first two difficulty levels.
Now I don't find anything wrong with that, but I just don't get that you kind of say you liked diablo 2 less because it was less difficult, but do like POE even though it's practically just as easy.

nice read. brought back a lot of memories.

Excellent discussion and very valid points. I'm not going to lie, I am still going to get Diablo 3 and I am still excited about it... but after playing the beta I really do feel they dumbed down the game and removed player choice. I posted a similar thread on the D3 forums and thought this would be a good topic to share it on:

I am pasting what I put there. Their recent updates have somewhat lessened by complaints, but I think they are still quite valid.

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This is my opinion... I'm sure some will share it and some won't... but I felt the need to vent.
Even if it has already been shared by others.

When you play any good RPG and build a character, just as important as the skills you choose is what you are forced to pass up. Using the example of the sorc in D2, you could essentially choose 1 or 2 skill trees, but not effectively 3. So if you choose Lightening and Fire, you had to pass up Ice and live with the consequences of that choice.

The same could be said for stat points. Put more points into str so I can wear a unique piece of armor that has its own benefits? Or put those stat points into Vitality so my health might be a bit higher, but I give up some choice in what armors I can wear.

I feel like D3 has completely given up on the idea of building characters. Customization seems to end at the point you choose your class. I see posts with people sharing their 'builds' but to me it just seems like they are sharing what skills they have chosen to bind their hotkeys to. Choice, at least choices of any consequence, have been removed from the game.

And since there are no skill points, everyone's base skills do the same damage.
In 15 seconds I can have the same build as any other player of my class. Even that I don't feel is an accurate statement, since changing out what skills you have bound is not respec'ing or changing your build.

It essentially destroys fun builds, like putting 20 skill points into charged bolt or teeth. A large part of what made those builds fun was that they were rare, and not necessarily viable beyond nightmare. Someone had to take a chance at putting that many skill points into a lvl 1 (or 6?) skill, and possibly not being viable at upper levels. D3 it seems there is none of that. Anyone can do anything with a 15 second cooldown after you change out what you have bound.

Good post johnschroeder02.
I agree with your opinion on the whole build thing.
However, I also think we should wait until we have played the full game until we can give a proper judgemnt of the game's systems.

For example: In diablo 2 you had A LOT of items that were core to certain build types. We still have to wait and see how items will affect the type of skills you pick and what runes you use on those skills etc.

It may not be the same as in diablo 2, but I am confident in blizzard and I'm sure they'll make a system that, when you combine all it's asepects, has a great amount of depth and choice.

Okay, addressing this one first:

"Customization seems to end at the point you choose your class."

As far as the character goes, yes. Very, very well put. As Tagek implied, it's entirely up to the gear from there. Which is amusing to me, since the shift from skill rune drops (i.e. items) to simply unlocking variants as a person levels up seems to me somewhat contradictory to this sentiment. One thing I really liked about the now defunct skill rune idea was that since you could change styles pretty much on the fly, the term 'build' was actually obsolete. 'Load-out' was one word I saw bandied about that seemed very appropriate.

Now it seems there are no builds that aren't going to be based around gear. And that's what happened in the latter iterations of Lord of Destruction, where you had cross-class skills creating ridiculous builds. You'd think Zeal on a Meleemancer would be incredibly attractive, but honestly, it took away some of the allure for me because it was no longer a Necromancer working within the constraints of his class. It was a Necromancer pretending to be a Paladin. Boo.

That said, I did make a tri-element Sorc and did just fine with her. You weren't entirely locked out of all three trees (the 'general' build of the Meleemancer cursed, relied on bone armour but also enjoyed Revive), but you were choosing to be jack of all trades, as it were, and naturally that means master of none.

Diablo 3 has no skill trees, no branching options from any one level. The deceased horse we're beating is starting to smell here.

Tagek: you're absolutely right about the longevity factor. No one could argue that. But I would suggest that Diablo 2's longevity was in some ways an unwelcome overstay. Did we get addicted to the end-game, or to the game towards it? Bots were the ultimate symptom of an end-game out of control; no one ever saw a bot playing the game as it was originally intended to be played. If you think primarily in terms of end-game, which can be repetitive and artificial, then you can likely justify the existence of bots doing the runs for you.

I see end-game in Diablo 2's case (and indeed most cases) as trying to prolong a high, to keep hold of that buzz you got when you first dropped a SoJ or gambled a pair of Frostburn gauntlets. Such attempts usually bring with them varying degrees of desperation and delusion, but that doesn't mean they can't be highly successful. The high of D2 lasted a very, very long time. I've no doubt the same will be said of D3. Blizzard in their current state are the unparalleled masters of end-game.

On runs: PoE may become all about runs but so far for me it is not. And given how many different characters and playstyles I want to try, I don't think it will be for quite some time. I was doing them in D3 Beta almost immediately. You could blame that on the incredibly short duration for which it was designed, but I think it was more a case of me really struggling to give myself a reason to keep playing it. The D2 open beta was much smaller, much more limited and yet a lot of people put a lot of time into it. You could go to a net cafe back then and see rows of people playing their low level Barbarians in the Cold Plains. Of course, you could also put that down to the multiplayer aspect, which Diablo 3 Beta really didn't encourage all that much. In turn, this may be due to the changes in Bnet or the lack of open beta for D3, but that's a whole other can of squigglies.

Point being, I have a horrible feeling that for all its grandeur, epic scale and 'Heavens shall tremble' bombast, Diablo 3 is heading towards the same pitfalls that befell Diablo 2: 95% of the game is hardly touched compared to the few areas that yield the best rewards. But that's the nature of end-game, isn't it? How many Diablo 2 players even remember or care about the storyline of the game? Rhetorical, of course: most would likely respond, 'what story?'

In contrast, PoE takes the same route Diablo 1 did: extremely simple premise in which the character's exploration of the world is the story unfolding. I've just hit act 2 and I don't feel like I'm part of some sort of world-threatening situation; just a dude trying to survive in this weird land. With Diablo 1, you knew that to go deeper was to get closer to whatever threat was emerging from under Tristram and that it had to do with the king's son and his advisor. That's not all that much to go by. It reminded me a lot of Eye of the Beholder, actually, especially with its quests within the main quest. PoE doesn't even have a main quest so far, which to me places more emphasis on the character as he/she interacts with the world rather than having to fulfil some sort of mandatory and likely clichéd destiny.

And that's why I don't feel the impending threat of runs or end-game: right now, everything is organic. My character has been dumped here and does whatever to get by. It just so happens that everything here wants to kill me, and the few things that don't could do with my help. Yay. That works. That's the game for me so far. And while I am sure that the later difficulty levels will be far less mysterious, I can't pretend I'm not interested in seeing the different drops and more challenging versions of monsters. That's *still* not end-game, however...

On difficulty: I'm glad you find PoE easy, but equally glad I don't. And yes, I felt Diablo 1 was much more difficult than Diablo 2 -- which I loved because of the build potential, the expansive loot and the varied environments (compared to Diablo 1, which essentially had one environment: inside, with varying degrees of darkness and doom). I don't think anyone who played both would claim otherwise. You had far fewer build options, weaker gear (seriously, most of what your typical duped warrior or sorc was toting was impossible to get legitimately), things were darker, meaner and less forgiving. As I've said a thousand times (give or take), that's how I feel playing PoE, especially when I'm in some interior environment.

So I love/d D1 for its mercilessness, D2 for its instant character variation potential and replayability, and PoE for its blend of the two. And I don't love D3 because it has none of the above for me. Is that clear enough now? :)

Hmm well:

'Point being, I have a horrible feeling that for all its grandeur, epic scale and 'Heavens shall tremble' bombast, Diablo 3 is heading towards the same pitfalls that befell Diablo 2: 95% of the game is hardly touched compared to the few areas that yield the best rewards. But that's the nature of end-game, isn't it? How many Diablo 2 players even remember or care about the storyline of the game? Rhetorical, of course: most would likely respond, 'what story?''

I don't fear this at all, because of the recently announced magic find system. Not sure if you've heard about it yet, but basically it encourages you a lot to go through the entire act instead of just rushing the boss a la diablo 2.

I think that will make the game alot more fun overall, especially with friends.

Also, the game (d2) was still ridiculously fun regardless of a lot of areas being untouched, so I don't see what the problem is there.

As for the story, I still very much remember it.
Maybe you apparently don't care about it as much, but I do, and I know a lot of other players do to. It's a very large part of the atmosphere in the game for me, because it makes the world believable.

Excellent post so I'm even more sorry to say that if you have never made it past level 80 in Diablo II, you basically haven't seen the game. As far as I remember, it took 1-3 days to Level 80 and then the real game started and the real grind did not start before you had reached level 90.

What I am saying is that you had to play in hell to see what Diablo was meant to be and if you have never played in that mode you also missed all the good items that could only drop in hell difficulty level.

Regarding D3 I also slightly disagree. You cannot compare it to its predecessors. In D3 you are level 60 as soon as you completed it in hell difficulty, so there is no more grind to be able to see it all.

Greetings from Germany

i've played both the DIII beta and the POE beta. I'm here to tell you, in this gamer's opinion, that POE is the true successor to DII.

DIII is like a theme park mmo, where ass POE/DII has more sandbox like qualities.

I'll leave it at that for now.

I am long Diablo fan also..and I recently got a chance to play Diablo 3 for several days.

But before I will touch it.. I want just say I played almost every "Diablo clone".. more popular like Torchlight, Titan Quest, Dungeon Siege etc..to less popular like Loki..and much more.

While few of these games were great in their own way..none of these captured true essence of Diablo.. Not sure what it is.. But is basically something which is keeping me in game ..just to slay monsters, grab loot and experience story again and again and never have enough. It's something what will keep me rerolling new characters, trying different skills, different combinations and trying all the crazy stuff.

When I got into PoE beta (i was following PoE for pretty long time and I got in via art contest ..so I really wanted to try it because.. it really looked as true Diablo successor).. I was pretty surprised that something from Diablo soul is really here..something which put PoE above all the Diablo clones ..but there is still something lacking. It can't grab my attention in way Diablo can..yet.. And I think it never will..it never will be like Diablo..It's definitely different game with Diablo touch.. but it's not Diablo.

As I said..I recently got a chance to play Diablo 3. Tons of changes, many systems completely reworked compared to Diablo 1 and Diablo 2..but when I got into the world of Sanctuary.. True feeling of Diablo was there...right away from the start. I can't describe why it is in that way. But that something what only Blizzard achieved to capture in their games. Addictive, fast and hell a lot of fun. Yes..Diablo 3 beta is short.. there is no more content I can see..but I am playing it again and again.. SO I think our opinion just differ

Will I play PoE? yes.. I will..why choose If I can have both.. there is not good reason to not play both unless you really don't like one of these games. and I like both.. But I wont fool myself.. PoE is good game..with something what Diablo games has ..but true Diablo is still just Diablo..Diablo 3 in this case.