Automated Trading!!!

"

Oblitus wrote:

I am playing non-ssf for:
- Build enablers (duh)
- 6L, it is way easier to buy one than to make it yourself
- Maps, completing atlas using only own map drops is very slow and RNG-based, especially for maps without recipes, and if you are chasing Elder on red maps it is common to not have a specific map.
- Carry service for things my build can't do and it is not worth making another character for it (hello HoGM)
- Master rotas. Sometimes challenge rotas.
Give me reasonable way to get those solo and I'll happily play pure SSF. I'm not crafting (I'm not rich enough for it, earning no more than 60ex per league), I'm not using aurabots (I like to keep my erratic pace), so I just don't need anything else.

You forgot Uber Lab trials. It might take an eternity to find all 6 Uber Trials on your own, just to get access to Uber Lab and get last 2 Ascendancy Points.

And about 6-L - although it's easier to buy, it isnt that hard to make one in SSF either. Build enablers and map/masters progress, though, is completely another story.

"

robmafia wrote:

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elderwood wrote:

I know that some people will probably just tell me to 'Git Gud', but an auto trade system would benefit everyone.

especially the botters.

As if current trading system doesnt benefit botters in first place. All its "drawbacks", such as "players interaction" are nothing but a small issue for a botter, but are a huge pain in ass for normal players. Actually, CAPTHCHA would be actually much BETTER for fighting bots, that current shitty system!
And BTW, automated trading system could be made so botters wont have a superior advantage.

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

And about 6-L - although it's easier to buy, it isnt that hard to make one in SSF either.

I would have to disagree. If you get lucky, sure, it isn't that hard. But let's say you're unlucky or want to use Vorici to avoid getting bit in the ass by RNG and wasting a shitload of fuses. Gathering 1500 fuses in SSF takes a long time, even if you do all the currency conversions you can. I can go from 0 to 1500 fuses in a few hours of dedicated farming in a trading league because I can do chaos recipe and convert those chaos to fuses. If there was a down conversion from chaos to fuses though... never mind, I hear the cries of "too OP" already.

About the comment about "automated trading will help bots"... Bots DO everything already automated. I have teen tons of bots filling currencies into a full inventory in less than a second...
They don't care if it's automated or not... just saying.

"

AkumaNoTsubasa wrote:

About the comment about "automated trading will help bots"... Bots DO everything already automated. I have teen tons of bots filling currencies into a full inventory in less than a second...
They don't care if it's automated or not... just saying.

I think the context there is in the form of some sort of AH or centralized market where a bot could just sit all day long sniping without ever having to do anything else. That type of automated trading would be bad.

I've posted this before but I think the problem is people don't identify the true pain point and then make suggestions around that. They jump directly to "we need AH". One of the most common reasons people don't like trading (for the most part, as it is subjective) is the lack of response from sellers. Right now the transaction process looks something like this for most traders:

1. Search trading site for item.
2. Whisper seller.
3. Wait for response, or move to next seller and repeat #2.
4. Party with seller.
5. Travel to sellers H/O.
6. Initiate trade with seller.
7. Complete trade with seller.

The pain point there is steps 2 & 3. Getting the seller to respond. If you do those steps 15-20 times then yeah, it's frustrating. If GGG gave us a system which simply eliminated that step it would satisfy most of the people that aren't just screaming for AH. That's why I think the H/O shop/vending machine/shop master concept has the most likelihood of being implemented. It makes the process this:

1. Search trading site for item.
2. Whisper seller.
3. Wait for response, or move to next seller and repeat #2.
4. Party with seller.
5. Travel to sellers H/O.
6. Initiate trade with seller's device.
7. Complete trade with seller's device.

They could make the actions for 6 & 7 sufficiently human interactive to make botting them difficult or impossible.

IMO, this sort of change adheres to the spirit of the Trade Manifesto so I think if GGG ever does anything it will be something along these lines. Of course, it all falls apart if GGG actually wants step #3 to be iterative. Then all hope is truly lost.

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

"

Oblitus wrote:

I am playing non-ssf for:
- Build enablers (duh)
- 6L, it is way easier to buy one than to make it yourself
- Maps, completing atlas using only own map drops is very slow and RNG-based, especially for maps without recipes, and if you are chasing Elder on red maps it is common to not have a specific map.
- Carry service for things my build can't do and it is not worth making another character for it (hello HoGM)
- Master rotas. Sometimes challenge rotas.
Give me reasonable way to get those solo and I'll happily play pure SSF. I'm not crafting (I'm not rich enough for it, earning no more than 60ex per league), I'm not using aurabots (I like to keep my erratic pace), so I just don't need anything else.

You forgot Uber Lab trials. It might take an eternity to find all 6 Uber Trials on your own, just to get access to Uber Lab and get last 2 Ascendancy Points.

And about 6-L - although it's easier to buy, it isnt that hard to make one in SSF either. Build enablers and map/masters progress, though, is completely another story.

Trials are not THAT bad for me. Uber lab for necro is not a game changer so it is not a top priority. May differ for other builds.

6L on ssf... Fuse spam is unreliable, and getting 1500 fuses by yourself... 857 6S items, 1-2 per map - you should grind over 300 maps, almost as bad as grind challenge.

"

Phaeded wrote:

1. Search trading site for item.
2. Whisper seller.
3. Wait for response, or move to next seller and repeat #2.
4. Party with seller.
5. Travel to sellers H/O.
6. Initiate trade with seller's device.
7. Complete trade with seller's device.

They could make the actions for 6 & 7 sufficiently human interactive to make botting them difficult or impossible.

IMO, this sort of change adheres to the spirit of the Trade Manifesto so I think if GGG ever does anything it will be something along these lines. Of course, it all falls apart if GGG actually wants step #3 to be iterative. Then all hope is truly lost.

That's exactly what GGG wants to avoid. They are:
1) Using buyer as a bot check for seller
2) Making sure sellers are making extra mark-up to compensate interruptions or only selling expensive things

"

Oblitus wrote:

"

Phaeded wrote:

1. Search trading site for item.
2. Whisper seller.
3. Wait for response, or move to next seller and repeat #2.
4. Party with seller.
5. Travel to sellers H/O.
6. Initiate trade with seller's device.
7. Complete trade with seller's device.

They could make the actions for 6 & 7 sufficiently human interactive to make botting them difficult or impossible.

IMO, this sort of change adheres to the spirit of the Trade Manifesto so I think if GGG ever does anything it will be something along these lines. Of course, it all falls apart if GGG actually wants step #3 to be iterative. Then all hope is truly lost.

That's exactly what GGG wants to avoid. They are:
1) Using buyer as a bot check for seller
2) Making sure sellers are making extra mark-up to compensate interruptions or only selling expensive things

Well, adequate design for steps 6 & 7 resolves the first point. As to the second, I'd be surprised if GGG's thinking was that simple or naive. Certainly there would be more 1 alc sales of things with a 1 alc value but I don't know that GGG would care, and if they did, it's unlikely they care because they want people making "extra mark-up".

"

Phaeded wrote:

1. Search trading site for item.
2. Whisper seller.
3. Wait for response, or move to next seller and repeat #2.
4. Party with seller.
5. Travel to sellers H/O.
6. Initiate trade with seller.
7. Complete trade with seller.

All those steps is something a bot doesn't care about.
The bots in poe whisper you, accept your party invite, join your hideout, accept your trade, put all their items into the trade, accept your stuff.

If they are the seller it's even easier...

You can not stop botting by making this tradesystem we have. And does it make any change if they use the trade api or poe.trade to check for underpriced items to buy them or to check an "auctionhouse" (auctionhouse being just a word for every tradesystem that makes everything automated) and do the transactions there? It does not. The bot user in both cases just starts their bot and comes back a few days later with a stash full of currency. The only people that are suffering in all cases are the players.

In our current system real players suffer from needing to ask 5398905 players for one single item, the bot doesn't care how many players they whisper, they don't want to play.

The player suffers from permanent scam tries like "I give you this item" or "can I pay you 50% less then you ask for?" stuff. The bot just doesn't care.

The player that runs maps and actually plays is forced in taking breaks from actually playing to do a trade just to have wrong items/currency from the other player because they try to scam you, lose portals from that, playtime (not everyone can play all day)... the bot? doesn't care. He can sit for hours and wait for the right currency or just automatically end the trade and trade with the next player, he doesn't play or have patience.

I can go on with this for hours.
The only one that suffers is the real player.
In an automated system you also have price fixers, bots and stuff. But that doesn't change the market in terms to now. If some fixer wants to fix, they do it. No matter if tradesystem or auctionhouses. They buy all stuff, sell it for more.

But the normal player could finally buy their little 1 alc - 5c item without the need of up to 50 minutes or more time to find a player that is actually selling the item. Also would an automated system stop the players from pricefixing downwards as the item would be instantly sold for that low amount. The normal players would only benefit.

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

"

robmafia wrote:

"

elderwood wrote:

I know that some people will probably just tell me to 'Git Gud', but an auto trade system would benefit everyone.

especially the botters.

As if current trading system doesnt benefit botters in first place. All its "drawbacks", such as "players interaction" are nothing but a small issue for a botter, but are a huge pain in ass for normal players. Actually, CAPTHCHA would be actually much BETTER for fighting bots, that current shitty system!
And BTW, automated trading system could be made so botters wont have a superior advantage.

*facepalm*

yeah, bots hate automation. /s

"

AkumaNoTsubasa wrote:

"

Phaeded wrote:

1. Search trading site for item.
2. Whisper seller.
3. Wait for response, or move to next seller and repeat #2.
4. Party with seller.
5. Travel to sellers H/O.
6. Initiate trade with seller.
7. Complete trade with seller.

All those steps is something a bot doesn't care about.
The bots in poe whisper you, accept your party invite, join your hideout, accept your trade, put all their items into the trade, accept your stuff.

If they are the seller it's even easier...

You can not stop botting by making this tradesystem we have. And does it make any change if they use the trade api or poe.trade to check for underpriced items to buy them or to check an "auctionhouse" (auctionhouse being just a word for every tradesystem that makes everything automated) and do the transactions there? It does not. The bot user in both cases just starts their bot and comes back a few days later with a stash full of currency. The only people that are suffering in all cases are the players.

In our current system real players suffer from needing to ask 5398905 players for one single item, the bot doesn't care how many players they whisper, they don't want to play.

The player suffers from permanent scam tries like "I give you this item" or "can I pay you 50% less then you ask for?" stuff. The bot just doesn't care.

The player that runs maps and actually plays is forced in taking breaks from actually playing to do a trade just to have wrong items/currency from the other player because they try to scam you, lose portals from that, playtime (not everyone can play all day)... the bot? doesn't care. He can sit for hours and wait for the right currency or just automatically end the trade and trade with the next player, he doesn't play or have patience.

I can go on with this for hours.
The only one that suffers is the real player.
In an automated system you also have price fixers, bots and stuff. But that doesn't change the market in terms to now. If some fixer wants to fix, they do it. No matter if tradesystem or auctionhouses. They buy all stuff, sell it for more.

But the normal player could finally buy their little 1 alc - 5c item without the need of up to 50 minutes or more time to find a player that is actually selling the item. Also would an automated system stop the players from pricefixing downwards as the item would be instantly sold for that low amount. The normal players would only benefit.

You are conflating a lot of different issues and trying to link them and failing IMO. But more basically, you've missed the point or I haven't made it clearly enough. Of course you can't completely eliminate bots in any computer game but you can make it more difficult so that only dedicated botters will bother. That's usually the bar that games aim for because completely eliminating botters is impossible.

My even more basic point is that all of the stuff you wrote is irrelevant to GGG. Again, players keep making suggestions that are in direct conflict with how GGG feels about trade. Those suggestions are going to be ignored by GGG and inflame the player base. That's not conjecture. It's based on evidence. However, if we look for ideas that are in line with GGG's philosophy and aren't game breaking (i.e. not bot enabling, meaning making things easier for botters) then we might have a chance of getting some sort of improvements. My suggestion is merely a small, incremental improvement in convenience for the real player while not providing an easy button for botters. It makes trade better but not easy. And it's not the only idea like that out there. It's not even the best of them. Just my own flavor of an already fairly common concept.

At this point I've written (and rewritten) just about everything I have to say. These topics are becoming an anathema at this point since the bottom line is they all result in endless debates and more often than not devolve into flame wars. Regardless, I firmly believe there are some truths that if players would just accept would allow us to generate a critical mass of more reasonable suggestions:

1. We will never have an AH.
2. We will never have fully automatic, instantaneous trades.
3. We will not change GGG's mind about those two positions. It is a core belief they have.

So I keep trying to figure out what can make trade less annoying yet stops short of asking for something they have clearly stated will never happen.

In any event, like the other threads on this topic I already stopped responding to, I'm pretty much done with this one and don't have anything further to offer. It's all just opinion anyway. There are no rights or wrongs despite people's attempts to make it seem that way. There is only preference.