PvP in 3.3.0 and Beyond

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IceDeal wrote:

Devs create a thread to get pvp feedback and improve the game ? Better turn it into a pvp forum ego battle contest to make it unreadable.

PvP community as it's finest ^^

Better than picking some dudes, building a pvp experience around those dudes limited views about the game. This is not the way to approach problems. Everybody has their own perspective, experiences and their perception is limited by those. all our opinions are inevitably biased, always mixed with s degree of ignorance. Our experiences are only shaped around winning. The way we gather data from each 1v1 ror team game is not about how the pvp should be but it's about how we can win. Players are blind. And their opinions... Some back up their points with better arguments, with longer description, some opinions are better crowd pleasers than others but that does not mean such opinions are what the game should be built around. Balancing is a matter of mathematics and statistics. Opinions(crowd pleaser or biased arguments which are backed up with good formulations) of us should have asked after they took 20 or 30 of us, gave us some tasks, gather data, make calculations and make a verdict of how the balance should be done. And THEN they should ask what we think, to see whether they should make more tests, gather more data or not.

That's how shit is done. I repeat, if a company has no beta tester team for pvp and ask for pvp balance to players. There is no hope anyway. Just expect another greendude. Same shit, different colors.

IF a 100M+ dollars company isn't doing that, sorry i won't be ass kissing GGG anymore. We did in the past and got cock... ehm sorry poet's pen slapped in the face. I'm not going to be the good guy with smiley face to beg for one more greendude or RF "balance" that GGG is going to offer us to cash grab 100+ more supporter packs.

The problem of using gear to counter lack of pvp insight and balance is that those gear are also evolving and one day they might not work on countering broken bad mechanics.

Other time those gear totally break a build (death door).

We should not look at what can counter this or this but balance in the core base. If chaos damage is so busted a 10k life player can t deal with it, it s a problem the devs need to deal with and reduce chaos damage. Asking players to just use a bad item to try to counter it is pretty bad balancing. Then in 6 month the mod countering chaos might disappear and chaos will be busted again.

If 10k life with 1-3k life regen and 70+ chaos res can t handle blight or chaos dots it s not by going down to 7-8k and 600 regen using Lorica that it will change anything.

Core problems need to be worked on, GGG need to take care of dots and chaos damage numbers. Taking players with best life setup and chaos res setups and making tests.

Other than that GGG shoudl also think about items like death doors. We should not have busted dots but we should also not have total immunity. At least GGG if you read this, it would be nice that death doors don t prevent bleeding so even if bleed damage is not affecting players, we could switch to bloodlust for example. Same for all ailments.

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Head_Less wrote:

The problem of using gear to counter lack of pvp insight and balance is that those gear are also evolving and one day they might not work on countering broken bad mechanics.

Other time those gear totally break a build (death door).

We should not look at what can counter this or this but balance in the core base. If chaos damage is so busted a 10k life player can t deal with it, it s a problem the devs need to deal with and reduce chaos damage. Asking players to just use a bad item to try to counter it is pretty bad balancing. Then in 6 month the mod countering chaos might disappear and chaos will be busted again.

If 10k life with 1-3k life regen and 70+ chaos res can t handle blight or chaos dots it s not by going down to 7-8k and 600 regen using Lorica that it will change anything.

Core problems need to be worked on, GGG need to take care of dots and chaos damage numbers. Taking players with best life setup and chaos res setups and making tests.

Other than that GGG shoudl also think about items like death doors. We should not have busted dots but we should also not have total immunity. At least GGG if you read this, it would be nice that death doors don t prevent bleeding so even if bleed damage is not affecting players, we could switch to bloodlust for example. Same for all ailments.

Every Zerphi build have more than 20K life regen per second and they all can tank all degen, DoT, chaos etc.!

You have to normalize skills and to do that you have to take into account all the mechanics that apply to them. Thus you can't simply balance Chaos damage until you test it versus a constant. Like a well rounded realistically obtained character using intelligent gear, not some dumb ass who has - 60 Chaos resists. You test it versus a 5k Hp or 6k ES character with 75 resists....if that shit instantly melts this character you need to really rethink your balance. If it performed well but didn't instantly kill you then look at the extreme cases...the 5-10k HP 6-10k + ES characters with layered defenses...you know where we should all be at this level anyways. If it one shots that shit you really really need to rethink your balance. Also much like I mentioned above you have to apply the same train of thought to all problematic skills but some carry with them multiple layers i.e ranged skills can't simply be reduced in damage output without considering first if they are multi hitting, aoe overlapping, elemental, have secondary damage...where's the problem really at? All layers or just a few..gotta test, can't just throw shit at the wall waiting for it to stick. Test versus competent builds, fully fleshed out characters with maxed resists, smart gear choices and trees shouldn't get 1 shot by lazy nor automated trash. You also can't simply stop there, you need to take into consideration who can even use the gear, not everyone can effectively block nor dodge so you can't just balance around this or that. Gear swapping is an integral part of PvP and it's a huge factor in balance and rightfully so...but certain builds can do certain things others cannot.

- I would like to advocate for the return of block penetration nod on tree maybe. Like I mentioned on earlier post, There is too much block and max block (red nightmare, tree, other items) and It really once again hurt 2h melee players.

While dual 1h can craft 30% block pen, rare 2h users can only get 15% and that is if they use rare items. Someone with let s say a starforge will have 0 chance to bypass the actual block chance some players have.

" with gladiator giving a possible +4% to max, ascendant gladiator +3% and the anvil unique amulet +3%, resulting in a maximum block chance of 82% in gladiator's case and 81% in ascendant's."

Then add all those items who give life/es on block... GGG there is a problem there.

My suggestion is it would be nice if the tree had a generic 10% block pen/5% dodge pen nod with 2 hand melee weapon between executioner and wrecking ball.

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Head_Less wrote:

- I would like to advocate for the return of block penetration nod on tree maybe. Like I mentioned on earlier post, There is too much block and max block (red nightmare, tree, other items) and It really once again hurt 2h melee players.

While dual 1h can craft 30% block pen, rare 2h users can only get 15% and that is if they use rare items. Someone with let s say a starforge will have 0 chance to bypass the actual block chance some players have.

" with gladiator giving a possible +4% to max, ascendant gladiator +3% and the anvil unique amulet +3%, resulting in a maximum block chance of 82% in gladiator's case and 81% in ascendant's."

Then add all those items who give life/es on block... GGG there is a problem there.

My suggestion is it would be nice if the tree had a generic 10% block pen/5% dodge pen nod with 2 hand melee weapon between executioner and wrecking ball.

I use block build in PvP and there are guys who use 2x 1 hand weapons with 15% reduce block reduction craft+ Reduce block gem, tahts total 65% reduce block, but actualy you are right about two hand weapons, so I agree with yuor idea :) maybe mod with 10% reduce block chance when you use two hand weapon will be good.

I've said for years even pre removal of the block penetration from the tree that only 2h should have it. Two handed weapons are designed to "crush" block. Why they gave swords block penetration in the first place was an immediate clue to how bad balance was going to be. Though this is only a relevant issue in PvP so applying this logic and balancing for it....will never happen unless they apply a line to the Block Chance Reduction gem rewarding 2h weapons more reduction then other weapon types.

Oh you can thank me for even having a BCR gem too, before I posted a fuck load about needing it to better balance we had nothing but swords versus Tempest shield casters and 1 shot dagger pray builds. Bows literally murdered themselves from off screen to Tempest shield and I watched a Heavy Strike Pain Sunder user knockback/do no damage to a very pathetically geared caster who had 75% block for the entire distance of a PvP map, one end to the other.

Edit: Then they'd put Molten Shell on and 1 shot the guy. We had no Avatar of Fire, or 100% elemental penetration options. Ironically as we'd get better options to deal with old balance issues we'd get newer lazier ones.

Remote Mine and Minefield need re-balance too.
0.9 T for remote mine is way too high, avg mine laying time across typical miners would be in range 0.2-0.3sec, minefield and other sources of additional mines basically turns that 0.25sec "cast time" into 16-20 cast/sec spam. Considering high pvp damage and relatively easy access to BCR - there is no reliable way to survive that endless burst.

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- All immunities are absurd in pvp (especially CI)

- Curses and penetration too powerful

- Movement skills and movement speed too OP (need to be capped or with diminishing returns)

- All crazy recovery mechanic are hard to balance - you either 1-2 shot each other or tanks will dominate the scene

It would be probably better to disable all recovery mechanics in PvP or nerf it drastically (including life flasks, life/ES regeneration, ES recharging, life/ES on block, zerhpis etc) and cut damage dramatically.


Life / ES would need extra balance but it would allow lots of builds being viable (glass canons, balanced, tanks)

Nobody would 1-2 shot each other, tanks would take lots of hits but still being murdered in time without possibility to regen/recharge life/es.

Block / dodge / evasion mechanics should be rebalanced to fit these changes.
F.e.: Block could be lowered to 1/3 while moving (the rule from diablo 2, new tactic possibilities)


- Projectiles are too fast (hard to dodge manually) and number of projectiles/distance is also problematic.

- Overlapping or shot gunning should be limited (traps, mines, aoe…)

- Triggering / automated skills if allowed should be nerf dramatically (being rather tactic skills), disable them in pvp would be better ( no skill involved)

- 1v1 arenas too small