Supporting GGG and PoE, but not necessarily Bestiary Leaguespansion

You never fail to make me feel a bit better about humanity in general, Matt. Cheers for that.

@Scourge, when act 5 was introduced, did you go on a rant about the fact that we're given the ability to kill unarmed civilians that are running away from us, clearly scared?

Hmmm, I can both see AND understand your concerns, though there IS a lore explanation that would make all this plausible.

And that would be bestiary being a continuation to talisman, lore wise. Similar to beyond and breach. If that is the case, then we'd be making offerings to the first ones, beings with a power that rivals or surpasses that of the gods.
The gods of wraeclast were sealed for a LONG time, which would've weakened them considerably. Kitava is the prime example: I think lani mentions at some point that at his prime an ocean would be no more than "just another sip in his cup". What we killed are basically the gods in their weakest states. Still powerful beings mind you, but severely weakened.
However, the first ones are something different altogether. We don't know a lot about them except for the fact that they are extremely powerful, can lay waste to entire landscapes, accept offerings given to them and are not the top of the food chain either (mentioned on natura hierachy).

TL;DR: While I agree with you that the method of obtaining power is questionable, it can make sense lore-wise. The gods we faught were weakened, there are ones out there that are at their prime and they aren't even the most powerful beings that exist in poe lore.

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The_Scourge wrote:

dropping the double standards wherein you dismiss this sort of thing with 'it's just a game' but then get fiery and passionate about game changes that personally affect you.

You are mixing ethics/moral with game changes like balance that are more of logical/mechanical nature. That empathy you're talking about seems poorly placed when considering a bunch of pixels slaughtered differently than the other pixels we slaughter at every moment in this game. Surely this league will make me stop carrying about my pet and make me sacrifice it to a greater rng god.

Edit: If you actually care about animal cruelty there's plenty of groups and thing you can do irl. This is not real life.

Look, while I can see why this mechanic seems too cruel and "psycho" for you I gotta say I have a logical issue with your arguments.
I played RF this league. I burn things to death. As far as I know this is what most people would consider the most painful way of dying imaginable and I do that to thousands of creatures, be it man or animal. The only difference to what this new league brings to the table is the amount of time that passes before the creature dies. And even though I have no idea how being sacrificed feels, Id say I take this over burning to death like a fucking witch. In the end its murder, no matter how you look at it. Is time worth more on the scale of cruelty, compared to pain? I dont know man, seems like a stretch.

Also, and this may sound a little...psycho...with the whole sacrifice thing, at least their deaths have meaning. They serve me now as buffs I can utilize to capture and sacrifice even more creatures and serve my insatiable hunger for more and more power.

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Anonymous1749704 wrote:

@Scourge, when act 5 was introduced, did you go on a rant about the fact that we're given the ability to kill unarmed civilians that are running away from us, clearly scared?

Funny you mention this, but I_No raised this concern, and call me crazy but I go out of my way to leave the civilians alone...

Slainte,
Matt.

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Anonymous1749704 wrote:

@Scourge, when act 5 was introduced, did you go on a rant about the fact that we're given the ability to kill unarmed civilians that are running away from us, clearly scared?

No, others did that. I pointed out that they were still in some way complicit to the atrocities. What we do in act 5 is incredibly violent but you can't equate the 'unarmed civilians' of an openly cruel, oppressive regime with genuinely innocent animals that have been placed in captivity for the express purpose of being sacrificed. Or maybe you can. I can't.

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FCK42 wrote:

Hmmm, I can both see AND understand your concerns, though there IS a lore explanation that would make all this plausible.

And that would be bestiary being a continuation to talisman, lore wise. Similar to beyond and breach. If that is the case, then we'd be making offerings to the first ones, beings with a power that rivals or surpasses that of the gods.
The gods of wraeclast were sealed for a LONG time, which would've weakened them considerably. Kitava is the prime example: I think lani mentions at some point that at his prime an ocean would be no more than "just another sip in his cup". What we killed are basically the gods in their weakest states. Still powerful beings mind you, but severely weakened.
However, the first ones are something different altogether. We don't know a lot about them except for the fact that they are extremely powerful, can lay waste to entire landscapes, accept offerings given to them and are not the top of the food chain either (mentioned on natura hierachy).

TL;DR: While I agree with you that the method of obtaining power is questionable, it can make sense lore-wise. The gods we faught were weakened, there are ones out there that are at their prime and they aren't even the most powerful beings that exist in poe lore.

Eh, I'm pretty sure I said it can fit the lore (thanks for the elaboration though!) and that to me this is more a question of characterisation. I felt I'd gotten to 'know' the mindset of my Exiles. What makes them tick and how they pursue power. The prolonged effects of facing down everything Wraeclast and Oriath could throw at them.

At no point in that surprisingly complicated evolution did I get a sense that many of them would do what Bestiary is strongly encouraging them to do.

Lore-wise, Wraeclast and Oriath both are built on mountains of sacrifice. While I don't feel the Exile is a particularly moral creature, I don't see much evidence that they'd engage in premeditated animal cruelty...unless the promise of power was associated with it. Which is totally on GGG.

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Pyrollusion wrote:

Look, while I can see why this mechanic seems too cruel and "psycho" for you I gotta say I have a logical issue with your arguments.
I played RF this league. I burn things to death. As far as I know this is what most people would consider the most painful way of dying imaginable and I do that to thousands of creatures, be it man or animal. The only difference to what this new league brings to the table is the amount of time that passes before the creature dies. And even though I have no idea how being sacrificed feels, Id say I take this over burning to death like a fucking witch. In the end its murder, no matter how you look at it. Is time worth more on the scale of cruelty, compared to pain? I dont know man, seems like a stretch.

Also, and this may sound a little...psycho...with the whole sacrifice thing, at least their deaths have meaning. They serve me now as buffs I can utilize to capture and sacrifice even more creatures and serve my insatiable hunger for more and more power.

I think its perhaps less about the mechanic of using bits for crafting, and more about the fact your actively collecting and caging a beast just to kill it later, in a menagerie that looks like a zoo from hell. I certainly don't think it fits in with what we know of the Ranger (she's a poacher for gawd's sake).

Oh, and before you rant about where meat comes from I teach Science, I teach Agriculture and I understand that animals raised on farm serve a purpose. Still, this path of pokemon abattoir does not look fun. Lemme catch them, harvest whatever and put the tame ones in my hideout :)

Me: Hey Gruest, sell me some stuff. I got this here golden chaos orb from the rear end of a Rhoa.
Gruest: (bites into chaos orb to check gold content) Exiles..
Me: Umm .. i hadn't washed that yet.
Gruest: (spits).

Cheers,
Matt.

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Mezion wrote:

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The_Scourge wrote:

dropping the double standards wherein you dismiss this sort of thing with 'it's just a game' but then get fiery and passionate about game changes that personally affect you.

You are mixing ethics/moral with game changes like balance that are more of logical/mechanical nature. That empathy you're talking about seems poorly placed when considering a bunch of pixels slaughtered differently than the other pixels we slaughter at every moment in this game. Surely this league will make me stop carrying about my pet and make me sacrifice it to a greater rng god.

Edit: If you actually care about animal cruelty there's plenty of groups and thing you can do irl. This is not real life.

Yeah, you're missing the point too. Sorry. This is much less about 'me' (as I keep saying) as the characterisation of the Exile. That 'bunch of pixels' you're unfairly downgrading from a vehicle of narrative. GGG need to stay true to that character: a nobody that stared Wraeclast in the face and overcome all manner of challenge in their uniquely amoral way, to a point where stopping upstart gods was just par for the course...

And I feel with Bestiary they have not successfully built on or been true to that character at all. I understand if people don't care about that. The vast majority of you are here just to kill stuff and get loot. Well and good. But for those that want something more to chew on, GGG can and do go to some lengths to provide it. And if they're going to do that, they should be mindful of how that 'more' will be received by the people it's aimed at. People who do care about their character's behaviour making sense and feeling like it matters.

edit: building on what essemoni's said just now, let's break this down Exile by Exile:

The Ranger: animal lover to the extreme. Kills the corrupted and puts down the weak. I CANNOT imagine her owning and maintaining that inhumane facility of spiked cages and pits we saw in the trailer.

The Shadow: "Treat life and death with equal grace it is said. Were I death, I'd take offence at this place" -- what he says upon entering The Crematorium. Assuming The Shadow has a lot of respect for death, I imagine he has a lot of respect for life as well. He kills for profit and gain. Usually material, occasionally something more abstract. Killing is an artform to him, not just a case of butchery or slaughter. At the very least, I think he'd scoff at this idea of keeping animals just to fight and kill them later. It's beneath him.

The Marauder: THIS DUDE HATES CAGES. HATES PRISONS. HATES GAOLERS. Nuff fucking said.

The Templar: As long as this is done for the greater glory of his Lord of Light, he'd probably do it. On the other hand, we haven't yet seen his character development in Part 2, which might leave him an outright heretic given what we learn about Innocence and Sin.

The Duelist: loves a cage fight, loves a challenge. LOVES the Arena. But we must remember that his iconic legendary hero, Daresso, graduated from fighting dogs and chickens in the pits of Sarn to face real opponents in the Grand Arena of Theopolis. Similarly, the Duelist would surely see going from facing not only a representation of Daresso in a dream-form of the Grand Arena of Theopolis but indeed gods in their arenas...to cage-fighting captive animals as a huge step down. As with the Shadow, I think this is beneath him.

The Scion: I don't really know much about the current Scion other than she was a noble, murdered someone (might still be her husband on their wedding bed, but that's been gently removed from the game), and she still shows some strange connection with Wraeclast. She's a blank spot and so I can't argue either way how she'd feel about this.

The Witch: THE ONLY class that might engage in this sort of entrail-dabbling and ritualistic killing of innocents. Even then the recompense would have to be pretty impressive. I get the feeling a master such as she has become by this point would be disdainful of what looks like a perverse mixture of hands-on druidic and necromantic pursuits.

...This is what I mean by characterisation. When you break down the personalities we're given for each of the exiles, not many of them seem likely to get on board with what Bestiary is offering. The only reason they would is reward, and that's metagamey at best.