F the labyrinth

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Zalhan2 wrote:

I did it the same day. I was watching a streamer and the entire channel was like WOW they really made it lol today. Somehow I ended up with 2 keys in the final fight and it still wasn't that bad, still hated it.

Lab still sucks. It's boring and paying someone to pay to win feels bad, though I understand why others legally cheat. There are like 4 people willing to do it for free just to get your loot too , it's not expensive just bad design and seems like a cheat to me.

If they didn't have the pay to win feature (which invalidates the eat your veggies argument since your not eating the veggies but tipping someone else to eat them for you) more people would be posting here.

Not quite sure what you mean by pay to win feature. Do you mean an uber lab boost?

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Xavathos wrote:

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suszterpatt wrote:

So you don't think that if we voice our opinions on why we don't find it fun, it could be improved so that we will have more fun with it?

Does it matter what I think, truly?

You certainly seem to think it does, given the number and length of your posts in this thread alone. So, what do you think? Is there anything to be gained from us telling GGG why we're not having fun with the lab?

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suszterpatt wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

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suszterpatt wrote:

So you don't think that if we voice our opinions on why we don't find it fun, it could be improved so that we will have more fun with it?

Does it matter what I think, truly?

You certainly seem to think it does, given the number and length of your posts in this thread alone. So, what do you think? Is there anything to be gained from us telling GGG why we're not having fun with the lab?

I but live to serve. -bows graciously-

I think it doesn't matter much at all telling GGG what you think about the Lab, for a few reasons:

1. They already know.

2. They have already addressed the issue by removing some trials, reworking the layout, shortening all but Uber Lab, removing negative effects and increasing the drop rate across the board.

3. The way some of you present your opinion should never be taken seriously. "Fuck the Lab" is neither feedback, nor suggestion and has no place in any public forum. Somehow you think that if you just spew enough toxicity their way, they will cave in and give you what you want? Foolish thoughts.

4. Those of you who do give proper feedback, often simply present a dislike or discomfort with the Lab. Where some issues can be resolved by reworking certain parts of the game, it's hard to think of one that would not completely take away the thought of what the Lab is meant to be by design, a trial of ascendancy.

I think if you addressed the above and brought forth real feedback and suggestions, they would be much more inclined to be taken to heart, perhaps even warrant a reply other than "Please keep it civil, folks". If you want change and provide a rotten tomato, don't be surprised if you are presented the same in return. Give them something to work with, try it.

Contrary to popular belief, I am not opposed to the Lab changing and I hope you get what you want, as long as it's not "free passives" and "Fuck the Lab". I'll be happy either way, I'm sure. I've seen more nerfs and reworks than most of you have over the last 6 years playing PoE and yet I remain, far from bored or fed up. Change is good, but it has to be done the right way and for the right reasons.

The Lab was a bold move on GGG's part and I applaud them for it still.

This is the Feedback and Suggestions forum. True that "F the Labyrinth" is not a suggestion. Although it is a bit amusing to me to consider how it might be interpreted as a literal suggestion. However, F the Labyrinth is valid feedback. It is simply saying I have a strong dislike of the labyrinth. That absolutely is valid feedback. Giving the same feedback multiple times is also reasonable.

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Turtledove wrote:

Giving the same feedback multiple times is also reasonable.

We know this is your point of view as you've made it your personal goal in life to shit talk the lab any chance you get.

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Xavathos wrote:

I think it doesn't matter much at all telling GGG what you think about the Lab, for a few reasons:

1. They already know.

It bears repeating, because it's still not fun.

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Xavathos wrote:

2. They have already addressed the issue by removing some trials, reworking the layout, shortening all but Uber Lab, removing negative effects and increasing the drop rate across the board.

- Removing trials, reworking the layout and boosting drop rates did nothing to improve the actual lab gameplay and the threat of DCs.
- Uber lab is the only one worth running more than once. Shortening the others was kind of nice, but ultimately inconsequential in endgame.
- Removing negative darkshrines was good, but it was nowhere near the main reason lab was not fun.

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Xavathos wrote:

3. The way some of you present your opinion should never be taken seriously. "Fuck the Lab" is neither feedback, nor suggestion and has no place in any public forum. Somehow you think that if you just spew enough toxicity their way, they will cave in and give you what you want? Foolish thoughts.

To a professional game dev, "I strongly dislike the lab" and "omfg fuck this fucking shit you fucking idiots" is worth exactly the same. It's 1 piece of negative feedback. Just because someone can't or doesn't bother to phrase their feedback in a tactful enough manner for your taste is no reason to ignore the fact that they're unhappy with your product.

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Xavathos wrote:

4. Those of you who do give proper feedback, often simply present a dislike or discomfort with the Lab. Where some issues can be resolved by reworking certain parts of the game, it's hard to think of one that would not completely take away the thought of what the Lab is meant to be by design, a trial of ascendancy.

I think you'll find that most threads do in fact at least highlight the reason people don't have fun with the lab. Quote a lot of them have constructive suggestions too, like this one.

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Xavathos wrote:

I think if you addressed the above and brought forth real feedback and suggestions, they would be much more inclined to be taken to heart, perhaps even warrant a reply other than "Please keep it civil, folks". If you want change and provide a rotten tomato, don't be surprised if you are presented the same in return. Give them something to work with, try it.

Contrary to popular belief, I am not opposed to the Lab changing and I hope you get what you want, as long as it's not "free passives" and "Fuck the Lab". I'll be happy either way, I'm sure. I've seen more nerfs and reworks than most of you have over the last 6 years playing PoE and yet I remain, far from bored or fed up. Change is good, but it has to be done the right way and for the right reasons.

I don't think anyone disagrees with any of this? Again, go through Turtledove's lab complaints thread, I'm sure you'll find plenty of suggestions and good discussions. It certainly doesn't help to hijack threads with a meta-discussion about how we should discuss the lab.

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Xavathos wrote:

The Lab was a bold move on GGG's part and I applaud them for it still.

I can think of lots of bold moves that were nonethless bad ideas.

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suszterpatt wrote:

It bears repeating, because it's still not fun.

They know you're not having fun by now, as do we all. How is reminding us every day going to help exactly?

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suszterpatt wrote:

- Removing trials, reworking the layout and boosting drop rates did nothing to improve the actual lab gameplay and the threat of DCs.
- Uber lab is the only one worth running more than once. Shortening the others was kind of nice, but ultimately inconsequential in endgame.
- Removing negative darkshrines was good, but it was nowhere near the main reason lab was not fun.

Threat of disconnects has nothing to do with the Lab and everything with your network, ISP or location if unfortunate. In 99/100 cases, GGG is literally powerless to solve the issue, which is the network between them and you. However unfortunate a disconnect may be in the Lab, it is NOT the issue at hand here.

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suszterpatt wrote:

To a professional game dev, "I strongly dislike the lab" and "omfg fuck this fucking shit you fucking idiots" is worth exactly the same. It's 1 piece of negative feedback. Just because someone can't or doesn't bother to phrase their feedback in a tactful enough manner for your taste is no reason to ignore the fact that they're unhappy with your product.

I don't know if that's true. It bears the same message, but you're talking to a person on the other end regardless. Showing some respect goes a long way, believe me, even if it doesn't seem to make a hint of difference. Or are you really telling me you believe it causes no harm at all to act like a completely spoiled and entitled brat when addressing an issue?

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suszterpatt wrote:

I think you'll find that most threads do in fact at least highlight the reason people don't have fun with the lab. Quote a lot of them have constructive suggestions too, like this one.

Quite a lot of them are actually full of "Lab is shit". Have you seen them at all or did you just skip to the few good pages among the hundreds full of mostly the same people repeating the same 3 words as if posting on a rant wall. The very few who would see reason, like Phrazz, gibbousmoon, Char1983 and raics, just to name a few on both sides of the spectrum, are just snowed in by the toxic remarks and sometimes even personal insults thrown around by the vocal majority. To the point where the discussion is indeed lost under an avalanche of negativity. For what? Who does it help? Neither side is the answer. It takes away from the power of the discussion to the point where its validity is all but lost to GGG's readers of it.

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suszterpatt wrote:

I can think of lots of bold moves that were nonethless bad ideas.

As can I, but the Lab is not among them in my eyes. (obviously)

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goetzjam wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Giving the same feedback multiple times is also reasonable.

We know this is your point of view as you've made it your personal goal in life to shit talk the lab any chance you get.

We know that this is your hypocrite point of view as you've made it your personal goal in life to shit talk people here any chance you get.

edit: goat is being a hypocrite because he's criticizing me for saying that "Giving the same feedback multiple times is also reasonable." Yet here the hypocrite is repeating the same thing in his personal attacks against me, which he has said many times over and over. Now is goat's statement feedback or suggestions to GGG? No, it's just goat being goat doing his personal attack thing. Note he also like to say "don't say anything at all if you can't say something nice". Another hypocite statement of his.

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Xavathos wrote:

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suszterpatt wrote:

It bears repeating, because it's still not fun.

They know you're not having fun by now, as do we all. How is reminding us every day going to help exactly?

The same way it apparently helped with Volatile, Vaal Pact, spectre persistence, and who knows how many other changes that have been repeatedly requested by the community. Squeaky wheel and all that.

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Xavathos wrote:

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suszterpatt wrote:

- Removing trials, reworking the layout and boosting drop rates did nothing to improve the actual lab gameplay and the threat of DCs.
- Uber lab is the only one worth running more than once. Shortening the others was kind of nice, but ultimately inconsequential in endgame.
- Removing negative darkshrines was good, but it was nowhere near the main reason lab was not fun.

Threat of disconnects has nothing to do with the Lab and everything with your network, ISP or location if unfortunate. In 99/100 cases, GGG is literally powerless to solve the issue, which is the network between them and you. However unfortunate a disconnect may be in the Lab, it is NOT the issue at hand here.

Disconnects and crashes could also be caused by bugs in GGG's code. More to the point though, GGG could design the lab in such a way that a disconnect doesn't destroy your progress.

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Xavathos wrote:

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suszterpatt wrote:

To a professional game dev, "I strongly dislike the lab" and "omfg fuck this fucking shit you fucking idiots" is worth exactly the same. It's 1 piece of negative feedback. Just because someone can't or doesn't bother to phrase their feedback in a tactful enough manner for your taste is no reason to ignore the fact that they're unhappy with your product.

I don't know if that's true. It bears the same message, but you're talking to a person on the other end regardless. Showing some respect goes a long way, believe me, even if it doesn't seem to make a hint of difference. Or are you really telling me you believe it causes no harm at all to act like a completely spoiled and entitled brat when addressing an issue?

I'm a professional game dev of 5+ years. I've seen internal reports of community feedback. Any post has a minimum value of gauging whether the person is positive/neutral/negative towards your product. Some posts have additional value on top of that, but even abrasive feedback carries more information than no feedback at all.

Besides, something tells me that you wouldn't be so harsh on positive feedback that doesn't go into detail on why the person likes the game. If you're going to take low quality positive feedback, you gotta take low quality negative feedback as well.

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Xavathos wrote:

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suszterpatt wrote:

I think you'll find that most threads do in fact at least highlight the reason people don't have fun with the lab. Quote a lot of them have constructive suggestions too, like this one.

Quite a lot of them are actually full of "Lab is shit". Have you seen them at all or did you just skip to the few good pages among the hundreds full of mostly the same people repeating the same 3 words as if posting on a rant wall. The very few who would see reason, like Phrazz, gibbousmoon, Char1983 and raics, just to name a few on both sides of the spectrum, are just snowed in by the toxic remarks and sometimes even personal insults thrown around by the vocal majority. To the point where the discussion is indeed lost under an avalanche of negativity. For what? Who does it help? Neither side is the answer. It takes away from the power of the discussion to the point where its validity is all but lost to GGG's readers of it.

If you expect the internet to be mostly civilised and constructive, you're in for a big disappointment. Right now, you're not exactly furthering the lab discussion either.

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Doomstryver wrote:

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Zalhan2 wrote:

I did it the same day. I was watching a streamer and the entire channel was like WOW they really made it lol today. Somehow I ended up with 2 keys in the final fight and it still wasn't that bad, still hated it.

Lab still sucks. It's boring and paying someone to pay to win feels bad, though I understand why others legally cheat. There are like 4 people willing to do it for free just to get your loot too , it's not expensive just bad design and seems like a cheat to me.

If they didn't have the pay to win feature (which invalidates the eat your veggies argument since your not eating the veggies but tipping someone else to eat them for you) more people would be posting here.

Not quite sure what you mean by pay to win feature. Do you mean an uber lab boost?

you pay someone else to skip the content. Your paying mats to basically win at the game instead of playing it. It's a stupid feature, you should not get credit unless you at the very least avoided the traps while someone else kills it.