ALL HAIL PRESIDENT TRUMP

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

The Wall™ stops illegal entry, not illegal immigration. That means it's great at keeping contraband as well as wanted criminals from getting into the US, but not great at keeping out normies. So let's be clear who wants the Wall™: Jeff Sessions, who is waging his War on Drugs® against cartels, MS-13, and Colorado.

If you also are annoyed by other people smoking demon weed, or you'd like to pay to have Mexico liberated from its current ruling class of drug-running murderous psychopaths, then yeah, sure, build that wall. But if your focus is immigration, you've got bigger priorities, like E-verify, benefit programs, and the 14th Amendment.

Shame that war on drugs is euphemism for war on civil liberties. I’m okay-ish with the idea of an actual war on drugs (less DEA / CIA, more DOD), at least so far as anyone can be okay with an actual war. If Mexico invited us, anyways. Since that’ll never happen, I’m down for some Wall-lovin’. Keep the weed domestic, fuck the cartels.

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CanHasPants wrote:

I’m down for some Wall-lovin’. Keep the weed domestic, fuck the cartels.

I mean technically so am I, but I have no illusions about it having anything more than a trivial impact of illegal immigration. I mean, some illegal immigration is from people who enter illegally, but not much. Border security and illegal immigration are separate issues.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

No, it won't be substantially less illegal immigrants, because illegal immigrants usually enter the country legally. They get a passport, pass through a checkpoint with the knowing consent of US officials, shop at the same Walmart I shop at, then — instead of going back like they're supposed to — they don't. It's as if you Wall™ people never heard about this thing called tourism.

The Wall™ stops illegal entry, not illegal immigration. That means it's great at keeping contraband as well as wanted criminals from getting into the US, but not great at keeping out normies. So let's be clear who wants the Wall™: Jeff Sessions, who is waging his War on Drugs® against cartels, MS-13, and Colorado.

If you also are annoyed by other people smoking demon weed, or you'd like to pay to have Mexico liberated from its current ruling class of drug-running murderous psychopaths, then yeah, sure, build that wall. But if your focus is immigration, you've got bigger priorities, like E-verify, benefit programs, and the 14th Amendment.

We need more than just the wall, and I want the Wall + all of which you listed.

If it was so easy to get a passport into the USA, then people wouldn't be risking their lives trying to cross a desert, with their family in tow, just to get into the USA. I don't believe it's as easy as you claim, but I do agree that people are doing it. I think passports into the USA should maybe be more expensive.

E-verify would put the onus for hiring illegal immigrants onto employers themselves. And would give the government justification for draconian fines and prison for those who hire illegal immigrants in spite of E-verify.

The local Lowes around here. If you were to show up in the parking lot between 6am-7am, you can find herds of illegal immigrants waiting in the parking lot to be picked up and hired by shady, fly by night contractors. Every single day, monday through friday. I want these contractors to be charged with felonies, and have their assets liquidated. What they're doing should be just as illegal as trafficking narcotics. There are people like me who might do some of those jobs, just not for what they're paying people from south of the border.

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MrSmiley21 wrote:

If it was so easy to get a passport into the USA, then people wouldn't be risking their lives trying to cross a desert, with their family in tow, just to get into the USA. I don't believe it's as easy as you claim, but I do agree that people are doing it.

Coyotes are the the result of two factors:
1. Mexican immigration law, which is stricter than US law and requires immigrants trying to make it from Central America to the US to use safehouses and/or bribe Mexican officials on their journey north (meaning a Mexican passport is often impossible), and
2. The William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Action Act, which protects unaccompanied children from non-Mexican countries from immediate deportation, greatly increasing the incentive to send Central American children through Mexico to the US without their parents.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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CanHasPants wrote:

I’m down for some Wall-lovin’. Keep the weed domestic, fuck the cartels.

I mean technically so am I, but I have no illusions about it having anything more than a trivial impact of illegal immigration. I mean, some illegal immigration is from people who enter illegally, but not much. Border security and illegal immigration are separate issues.

Nope. Trump need to build a big, beautiful wall. It is showy and expensive, and not very practical or effective. BUT it suits him perfectly. You don't want him to break his campaign promises, do you?

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deathflower wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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CanHasPants wrote:

I’m down for some Wall-lovin’. Keep the weed domestic, fuck the cartels.

I mean technically so am I, but I have no illusions about it having anything more than a trivial impact of illegal immigration. I mean, some illegal immigration is from people who enter illegally, but not much. Border security and illegal immigration are separate issues.

Nope. Trump need to build a big, beautiful wall. It is showy and expensive, and not very practical or effective. BUT it suits him perfectly. You don't want him to break his campaign promises, do you?

It will be a worldwide tourist attraction for graffiti artists!

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faerwin wrote:

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CanHasPants wrote:

I’m down for some Wall-lovin’.

It will be a worldwide tourist attraction for graffiti artists!

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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faerwin wrote:

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CanHasPants wrote:

I’m down for some Wall-lovin’.

It will be a worldwide tourist attraction for graffiti artists!

Spoiler

Don't worry, It is like a 2000 miles wall. You will run out of paint.

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MrSmiley21 wrote:

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There are people like me who might do some of those jobs, just not for what they're paying people from south of the border.

There's your problem.

You're making the assumption that these people are willing to pay normal-American wages to get these jobs done. In many cases? They're not. If they were willing to pay a fair wage for a fair worker to get their work done they'd do that, because shady people who hire illegals out of a Lowe's parking lot are already breaking laws and risking the destruction of their business. Increasing that risk doesn't stop these guys from looking to cut corners and dollars wherever they can.

One of the strongest arguments against minimum wage laws (which I generally support, by the way. Minimum wage, not this argument - but it's a compelling argument) is that the actual minimum wage an employer can pay is Zero - they can not hire you. Enforcing a minimum wage, as is required for every legal American worker, means a business has to find a way to make the work hours they get from you worth that minimum wage expenditure to them, whether or not they feel that's possible.

Shady, unethical employers faced with the need to hire more expensive legal American workers for jobs they've thus far been unwilling to pay legal American worker wages for will not go "okay, you caught us. Sorry 'bout all those years of undercutting the market with illegals; here's your 20$/h job. Enjoy, Sam." They will do everything in their power to get the illegals back, or to get the legal American worker to work for the same rates as the illegals they're replacing. They'll give you temp hours with a very strict maximum quota you're allowed to work, and then expect you to bust a gut doing half again the actual work those hours would normally entail. They'll demand off-the-clock work, and no matter that that's illegal too - they'll find a way.

Companies that employed Five Dollar Pablo in the first place are not going to just shrug their shoulders and switch to hiring Ten Dollar Sam instead because Trump built a big fat expensive useless pointless Wall. Companies will fold, and the ones that are left will snap and snarl and bite and hiss and spit and fight to the last drop of their blood to not hire you to do a job, just for twice what they're used to paying people from south of the border.

If they were willing to pay those wages in the first place they'd already be doing it.

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1453R wrote:

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MrSmiley21 wrote:

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There are people like me who might do some of those jobs, just not for what they're paying people from south of the border.

There's your problem.

You're making the assumption that these people are willing to pay normal-American wages to get these jobs done. In many cases? They're not. If they were willing to pay a fair wage for a fair worker to get their work done they'd do that, because shady people who hire illegals out of a Lowe's parking lot are already breaking laws and risking the destruction of their business. Increasing that risk doesn't stop these guys from looking to cut corners and dollars wherever they can.

There are laws on the books, sure, but they're largely not being enforced. If the government got serious about enforcing these laws, as well as imposing stricter penalties, I believe the risk would outweigh the reward for these contractors. Neither political party really wanted to touch this particular issue, at least until Trump got elected. I don't know what the cause is behind the lack of inaction, it could legitimately be a lack of resources and personnel in this area, and it's probably a very widespread issue. ICE might have bigger fish to fry with the limited resources they got.

It's always been my opinion that if you're not willing to pay Americans a fair wage for a job, then you got no place doing business here. Get out, go to China, or wherever, and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Just my 2 cents.

My uncle used to be a brick layer, and he made $25/hr back in the late 1980s, which would be equivalent to around $35-$40/hr in 2018 money. Some people just don't understand, especially youth in their teens and early 20s, that a whole lot of jobs that used to pay middle class to upper middle class incomes now pay complete shit. I believe Trump is trying to do something to turn this around.

There is a complete lack of apprenticeship programs for skilled trades. A 17-18 year old fresh out of HS, used to be able to sign on somewhere as an apprentice, and in 4-6 years, they'd be a journeyman tradesman, able to make a single income large enough to support a stay at home wife, and 3-4 kids.

Rather than saying "we can't go back to that", people need to ask "why?", and "what's in the way of going back to that?", and then people can decide to elect representatives who are willing to smash these "can't" barriers.