ALL HAIL PRESIDENT TRUMP

It's interesting to see the horseshoe theory live on this forum though, that last wall of text from someone who obviously sees themselves as a "liberal savior" was exactly what you would see on a unmentionable forum I won't even name if you replaced a few lines with [insert other issue] [insert other race]


The worst part is, people are wired through the conditioning to think they are being virtuous while speaking gross ideologies.

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JNF wrote:

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1453R wrote:

Constantly accusing literally everyone that isn't a white Christian male of being a 'crazy liberal' when they try and raise awareness of the fact that being A.) white, B.) Christian, and C.) male are all undeniable advantages in the modern U.S. job/opportunity market is adding to the problem, not combating or resolving it.

I can't stop laughing every time I read this statement. This is what happens when you live in a bubble and invent your own reality. It's obvious that you don't fit that criteria, because you'd be singing a much different tune.

If I remember correctly, 1453R is a white male gunlover who dreams of one day being a woman the way lottery players dream of one day being rich. So other than that "straight" part, actually very demographically similar to a typical NRA member.

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1453R wrote:

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Khoranth wrote:

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faerwin wrote:

meh, I can't really spend my time pleasing crazy people since their demands (in this case) are not logical.

I'm serious when I say: if you worked for a prominent company in the USA, and said what you said under your real name, the crazy liberals would protest against you for racism, and you'd probably be fired. Things are getting really bad here in the USA.

I never talk politics online, under my name, on Facebook ect. I've got a house and family, and it is too great a risk.

You're one of those who believes there's absolutely no systemic biases or endemic racism/sexism/creed-ism left in the world, and who figures any movement trying to raise awareness of or fight those systemic issues is nothing but a bunch of screaming lunatics, aren't you?

Constantly accusing literally everyone that isn't a white Christian male of being a 'crazy liberal' when they try and raise awareness of the fact that being A.) white, B.) Christian, and C.) male are all undeniable advantages in the modern U.S. job/opportunity market is adding to the problem, not combating or resolving it.

None of these people blame you for being white, Christian, or male. These organizations and movements, when guided and directed by people doing them properly, are trying to do nothing more than increase public awareness of issues that non-W/C/M individuals face that the average W/C/M individual does not know about. Nobody's trying to steal your job. Nobody's trying to thoughtpolice you.

All they're doing - and I say this as a white male who's talked extensively with some folks involved with these ideas - is trying to educate people, tell them that this shit is indeed still happening, and we can only fix it if everyone is aware of the problem and does their little bit to correct it.

No, Faerwin's plan would not get him Fired For Having Opinions. It's not viable for numerous other reasons, but seriously. Can we not chew on people for raising awareness of systemic problems lingering from much darker days of U.S. history?

I have a problem with some white males - socialism. Karl Marx and all those socialist "theories" in west Europe a bunch of socialist white males. No worries they are a dying breed (and wts in general). White ppl cant even replace themselves with sub 2.0 fertility rates. Soon we will be back to reality

I say this a mixed person - basically a typical Californian - your ideas are bunk and will never stand test of time

What has real power in real world is social capital (big families or tribes for the gay ppl out there) and organized violence which white ppl fail at since WW2.

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Aim_Deep wrote:

What has real power in real world is social capital (big families or tribes for the gay ppl out there) and organized violence which white ppl fail at since WW2.

You have the mixed privilege of being able to utter this true statement and not being called a supremacist. Whites in USA (and increasingly in western Europe) can't even openly defend their identity, without triggering shrieking alarms from left & right. It's so bad, you can't specifically encourage whites to have more kids, without being attacked as a "Nazi", or a "misogynist" at best. Subversive revisionists want to tear down statues, erase western history, indoctrinate your kids into hating themselves, etc...

Remember my western friends: it never pays to be a cuck. There should be zero compromising with the far-left, neomarxist, anti-European ideology. The moment you start compromising and going soft on your convictions, is the moment you let enemy subversion slip through and then co-opting and gaslighting begins.

People who try to appease all sides, will get respect from none. In the end, no matter which side comes out at the top, cucks will be shown no mercy.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

If I remember correctly, 1453R is a white male gunlover who dreams of one day being a woman the way lottery players dream of one day being rich. So other than that "straight" part, actually very demographically similar to a typical NRA member.

Little brutal there, don't ye think buddy? q_q But I suppose substantially correct in broad strokes.

White? Yes.

Male? Insofar as employers are concerned, yes.

Christian? Hell no. I harbor a deep and unshakable hostility and distrust for organized religion as a whole. Not necessarily people who practice it, I've met some folks who draw strength and serenity from their beliefs and I've always thought them fortunate to have such a well of peace to draw on, but Christianity as an organized whole upsets me tremendously.

Straight? Depends on your definition of straight. If I'm a White Male? Yes. Wimminz is hawt. If your conception of gender/identity is sufficiently flexible to allow for the way I've concluded that my brain works? I dunno what the term is or might be, but folks'd probably take issue with straight. Again, however - so far as an employer would be concerned, yes.

And yet I'd also like to consider myself educated enough, if only just barely, in the issues being discussed here to realize that laws such as Affirmative Action, if not necessarily implemented well, are indeed trying to fix endemic issues in a significant portion of the country. I'll get into that more a little later prolly, but at the moment I've got to get on the road to work. I'll just say this: fuck outta here with that NRA shit you know better :P Firearms enthusiast I may be but I can recognize screaming crazy when I see it.

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1453R wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

If I remember correctly, 1453R is a white male gunlover who dreams of one day being a woman the way lottery players dream of one day being rich. So other than that "straight" part, actually very demographically similar to a typical NRA member.

Little brutal there, don't ye think buddy? q_q But I suppose substantially correct in broad strokes.

White? Yes.

Male? Insofar as employers are concerned, yes.

Christian? Hell no. I harbor a deep and unshakable hostility and distrust for organized religion as a whole. Not necessarily people who practice it, I've met some folks who draw strength and serenity from their beliefs and I've always thought them fortunate to have such a well of peace to draw on, but Christianity as an organized whole upsets me tremendously.

Straight? Depends on your definition of straight. If I'm a White Male? Yes. Wimminz is hawt. If your conception of gender/identity is sufficiently flexible to allow for the way I've concluded that my brain works? I dunno what the term is or might be, but folks'd probably take issue with straight. Again, however - so far as an employer would be concerned, yes.

And yet I'd also like to consider myself educated enough, if only just barely, in the issues being discussed here to realize that laws such as Affirmative Action, if not necessarily implemented well, are indeed trying to fix endemic issues in a significant portion of the country. I'll get into that more a little later prolly, but at the moment I've got to get on the road to work. I'll just say this: fuck outta here with that NRA shit you know better :P Firearms enthusiast I may be but I can recognize screaming crazy when I see it.

I assume the issue is political. To pass legislation you need a majority and republicans support for those legislation that benefit underprivileged or disadvantaged would be lacking. Democrats would have to mobilize a larger portion of its base and turn to the African Americans and Minorities. I would imagine that Affirmative Action is a Compromise to get them on board.

ALL RIGHT. Off the road, got some time, let's do this. Fortunately for me, managed to use the time to think more about the issue and realize the way I would've gone about it half an hour ago was all wrong, so huzzah for breaks!

Anyways.

Yes, Affirmative Action laws are a mess and lead to injustice. On all sides - nobody likes being 'The Diversity Hire', and nobody likes losing a job because of diversity laws. It leads to bad blood all around and a continuance of this 'reverse racism' trend.

The problem is that said laws, organizations such as Black Lives Matter and (proper) feminism, and all the rest are groping towards an idea that Alcoholics Anonymous, actually, managed to hit upon years ago. it was either Scrotie, Pants or Erdelyii (the magic of Internet handles, everybody) who spoke to confirmation bias somewhere in one of these threads a little bit ago, and to the fact that AA is as successful as it is not by working to convince alcoholics that they're Better and they've Beaten It, but by convincing them there is no beating it. That they're an alcoholic, they will always be an alcoholic, there is no chance of them ever not being an alcoholic, and they will only ever be one slip away from being right back where they started.

Racism is the same way. Everybody is racist. You're racist, I'm racist, your grandma's racist, the Pope is racist. Racism is hardwired into the human condition.

The tribal mindset that produces racism is deeply rooted in the human psyche, there's no getting away from it. If you have a human brain and you think with it, you're going to be prone to racism to some degree or other because that is how human brains work. Everybody has an 'Us' they prefer to any other demographic of individuals, their chosen tribe, and they are more or less prejudiced against anyone that does not fit their chosen tribe. The only way to combat this innate bias, to get around the fact that the species is innately racist, is to be aware of the fact that the species is innately racist and take that fact into consideration when making decisions that racism may or may not impact on - such as hiring, in the case of Affirmative Action laws.

That process of checking oneself and examining your reasoning when making such decisions cannot be legislated. You cannot force people to follow such a process, which is why Affirmative Action doesn't really work. AA (the law) cares about results, not the process that produced those results, and in this case the process is more important than the results. It is perfectly possible that all of the best-qualified candidates for the half-dozen positions you're hiring for at Time A are white Christian males, and AA is stopping you from making the best decisions you can for your business. It is also possible, Bible Belters, that you were simply beaten out by a better qualified candidate, or someone who made a better offer than you did.

Racial politics and racism do not always play into every decision anyone makes, but the only way to reduce racial issues in this country, or in any other, is to be aware of the endemic racism of the human condition and keep it in mind. Same as recovering alcoholics having to remember they're an alcoholic every time they make a decision that could threaten their sobriety. That's easier for most of us than it is for recovering alcoholics because fortunately acute racism of the Klanner sort is increasingly rare these days, and also frowned on by everybody. 'Reverse' racism against W/C/M folks (which is just racism, by the way - it is in fact possible to be racist against 'privileged' groups) is backlash and strife from the fact that people are actually, seriously, tackling these issues for the first time in human history.

This crap has only really mattered, in any significant way, for the last sixty or seventy years or so. At least over here in the U.S. Doubtless other folks will tell me their country's been doing much better for much longer, which is fantastic. Good on ya. But until we catch up over here in Trumpistan, this is going to be a contentious issue.

And as I said, I don't really think it'll ever not be one. Sadly.

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1453R wrote:

The tribal mindset that produces racism is deeply rooted in the human psyche, there's no getting away from it.

Sure there is. First we have to discover what lesson Mother Nature was trying to teach us when She made us fetch a switch and bent us over Her knee all those times, that racism became a reproductive mode of thinking. Then we have to deploy a multitude of adaptations and allow them a sufficiently competitive amount of time that the good ones become even more reproductive. Thousands of years, maybe more? Until the more reproductive adaptation has had enough time to utterly extinct the less reproductive? Anyways, the bit about sufficiently competitive amount of time is super important. Reproductive adaptations will be immediately self evident by the sudden leap in success and standard of living. After a time, said adaptation will be the norm, as reproductive things do.

Skip a bunch of rebuttals of the current goings on, and head straight for the one three liner conclusion.

“It’s such a good idea we made it mandatory under credible threat of violence.” We will only breed more disappointment because, no matter how big, the government is not God—natural selection (She) always was, still is, and always will be. Victory must be built; it cannot be legislated into existence.

P.S., Scrotie was responsible for the bit on confirmation bias. I await the day he publishes his own “Rules for Life,” ScrotieMcB’s Big Book of Memes: An Antidote to Unfuckable Ideas; with the right PR it has potential to be a best seller.

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1453R wrote:

Yes, Affirmative Action laws are a mess and lead to injustice. On all sides - nobody likes being 'The Diversity Hire', and nobody likes losing a job because of diversity laws. It leads to bad blood all around and a continuance of this 'reverse racism' trend.

Wow, didn't expect you to agree.

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1453R wrote:

The problem is that said laws, organizations such as Black Lives Matter and (proper) feminism, and all the rest are groping towards an idea that Alcoholics Anonymous, actually, managed to hit upon years ago. it was either Scrotie, Pants or Erdelyii (the magic of Internet handles, everybody) who spoke to confirmation bias somewhere in one of these threads a little bit ago, and to the fact that AA is as successful as it is not by working to convince alcoholics that they're Better and they've Beaten It, but by convincing them there is no beating it. That they're an alcoholic, they will always be an alcoholic, there is no chance of them ever not being an alcoholic, and they will only ever be one slip away from being right back where they started.

That was me who connected AA to confirmation bias.

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1453R wrote:

Racism is the same way. Everybody is racist. You're racist, I'm racist, your grandma's racist, the Pope is racist. Racism is hardwired into the human condition.

I said that confirmation bias is hardwired into the human condition, but I didn't say alcoholism is hardwired into the human condition. Well, not everone is a racist; like alcoholism, some aren't alcoholics merely because they have a drink once in a while. (I wonder if AA-style confirmation bias manipulation therapy would or wouldn't work for racists.)

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1453R wrote:

The tribal mindset that produces racism is deeply rooted in the human psyche, there's no getting away from it. If you have a human brain and you think with it, you're going to be prone to racism to some degree or other because that is how human brains work. Everybody has an 'Us' they prefer to any other demographic of individuals, their chosen tribe, and they are more or less prejudiced against anyone that does not fit their chosen tribe.

Really? So no white person has ever thought "all the other white people around me are mean or stupid, I'd rather hang out with the local black people because they're cool?"

Please, let us not use the communist understanding of racism to mean "acknowledging differences in deserved outcome between different races." If you divide any group of people into two arbitrary teams - say, red jerseys and blue jerseys - there is a near-zero probability that one team will be equally deserving as the other, and a near-zero probability that one team will receive the same outcomes as the other team. If equality of merit and/or outcome is nigh-impossible with arbitrary and easily modifiable group designations, how could we reasonably hope it for arbitarary and non-modifiable groups? Acknowledging these differences is NOT racism, because racism is not discrimination on the basis of merit or previous success; racism is discrimination against individuals that prioritizes race over valid criteria for discrimination.

So yes, people WILL notice differences beteeen different races. However, anyone with a substantially large sample size will notice two things: that certain generalizations regarding differences between races are true even with larger and larger sample sizes (aka race realism), and that there are always individual exceptions to these generalized differences. Avoiding racism is about focusing on the latter by promoting individualism and recognizing individual differences; if one rejects individualism and only looks at people in terms of group identity, race realism inevitably leads to racism, because all discrimination against groups is discrimination against individuals.

I will admit that some degree of racism is inevitable, but only temporarily, and that the ultimate cure for racism is curiosity about individual details. For example, consider somebody who has been arrested and is in jail - knowing nothing else about that person, you'd probably assume they did something wrong to get in such a position, but acknowledging your own ignorance of the details you'd be unwilling to do much about it (ex: executing them*) until you can get them a day in court. At that hearing, questions would be asked and answers given so a better understanding of guilt or innocence could be established.

In a similar way, a non-racist may know that, say, the difference in average IQ between black Americans and white Americans is about 15 points, but what separates the racist from the non-racist is the hesitancy to act on such generalized information before learning more individual details, and the adherence to due process before making critical decisions discriminating between individuals. In other words, while initial racism may be unavoidable, the difference between a racist and a non-racist is whether they dwell on such information or seek to dismiss it with more precise information.

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1453R wrote:

The only way to combat this innate bias, to get around the fact that the species is innately racist, is to be aware of the fact that the species is innately racist and take that fact into consideration when making decisions that racism may or may not impact on - such as hiring, in the case of Affirmative Action laws.

As long as there is sufficient curiosity about individual details prior to action, such racial bias won't last long. Awareness helps, but isn't a requirement. And Affirmative Action is in no way a help here.

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1453R wrote:

That process of checking oneself and examining your reasoning when making such decisions cannot be legislated. You cannot force people to follow such a process, which is why Affirmative Action doesn't really work. AA (the law) cares about results, not the process that produced those results, and in this case the process is more important than the results. It is perfectly possible that all of the best-qualified candidates for the half-dozen positions you're hiring for at Time A are white Christian males, and AA is stopping you from making the best decisions you can for your business. It is also possible, Bible Belters, that you were simply beaten out by a better qualified candidate, or someone who made a better offer than you did.

Completely agree. I acknowledge that some people opposed to Affirmative Action don't have good motives, but sour grapes.

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1453R wrote:

Racial politics and racism do not always play into every decision anyone makes, but the only way to reduce racial issues in this country, or in any other, is to be aware of the endemic racism of the human condition and keep it in mind. Same as recovering alcoholics having to remember they're an alcoholic every time they make a decision that could threaten their sobriety. That's easier for most of us than it is for recovering alcoholics because fortunately acute racism of the Klanner sort is increasingly rare these days, and also frowned on by everybody. 'Reverse' racism against W/C/M folks (which is just racism, by the way - it is in fact possible to be racist against 'privileged' groups) is backlash and strife from the fact that people are actually, seriously, tackling these issues for the first time in human history.

Oh, please. Men and women alike have been prominent in recognizing the human rights of black people for over 200 years now. I'm not going to give the movement a free pass for employing dangerous methods on the false claim that it's still but afledgling.


* All racism is ultimately predicated upon what I call the Punisher Fallacy - that the seeking of further details via due process prior to discrimination is too inefficient to be worth pursuing, usually due to distrust of "corrupted" decision-makers in positions of power. Because of this, dissatisfaction with government and other social institutions is strongly correlated with racism.

EDIT: @Pants, since Scrotie managed to catch my sleepy ass typing.
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Shit, I'd read it.

But yeah.

Mother Nature was teaching us that a band of hairless ape organisms has better odds for survival than singleton hairless ape organisms, so get buddies. Things that are different to your buddies are potentially going to eat you though, so stick close to your buddies and reject anything that's not your chosen band of buddies.

Doubtless there's deeper scientific truths at play, there usually are, but the basic reasoning behind tribalism are both intuitive and still widely at play. In areas where the primary local support systems are community churches and such, you'd better believe that being Christian is a reproducible survival trait. The same general idea can usually be extrapolated without much effort to anywhere you happen to be.

I'm too scatterbrained at the moment for a serious lay science debate, unfortunately. Blagh. Anyways. Yeah, natural selection and cultural drift will take care of the problem in a few thousand years - provided the Donald Fuckmothering Trumps of the world don't induce Doomsday for jollies, at least.