Labs should not be mandatory.

Zaludoz, nice post, I've added a link to it in the OP of the list thread. https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1702621

I've also added an "&" after your name in your list. This indicates that you have expressed an opinion critical of the loathsome labyrinth content, post release 3.0. I haven't been real diligent in keeping this aspect of the list up to date. So sorry if that wasn't your first post after the 3.0 release.

I know I am in the minority, but I feel this needs to be said.

I have found that my ability to respond to respond to enemies and bosses has improved dramatically since the Labyrinth has been added to the game.

Because they are things that
1) Cannot be tanked (in the sense of ignoring their existence entirely)
2) Cannot be killed
The player has to actually look at what the traps are doing and respond to them accordingly.

If I had not gotten practice with the above skills in the Labyrinth I think I would have still tried to sit and tank against Innocence and Kitava instead of watching their cues. And I would have died many many times. This goes for almost all the god battles. I am finding this applies to many map bosses as well. (Though I suppose people who just shape easy maps wouldn't notice that as much).

I really like the new god battles that are more tactical (looking at what the gods are doing feels quite important) instead of just optimizing enemies to take and deal a lot of damage.

I feel GGG wants players to look at the monsters and environments they create and have players react to them instead of just having players nuke the screen and look at item drops.

Edit: Glass cannons trivialize most content. It is only FAIR that they have some content that is hard for them because of how they built their character. It is called a trade-off.

Edit: I suppose I have experienced Stockholm Syndrome towards the Labyrinth. When it started I hated it immensely because I was so poor at it. Instead of avoiding it, I challenged it repeatedly seeing myself being bad at the Labyrinth as a weakness in me and my character. I now feel grateful toward the Labyrinth and believe it deserves a spot in the game. (I do support the recent nerfs towards the Labyrinth however.) Yep, sounds like Stockholm Syndrome.

"

CidAvadose wrote:

I know I am in the minority, but I feel this needs to be said.

I have found that my ability to respond to respond to enemies and bosses has improved dramatically since the Labyrinth has been added to the game.

Because they are things that
1) Cannot be tanked (in the sense of ignoring their existence entirely)
2) Cannot be killed
The player has to actually look at what the traps are doing and respond to them accordingly.

If I had not gotten practice with the above skills in the Labyrinth I think I would have still tried to sit and tank against Innocence and Kitava instead of watching their cues. And I would have died many many times. This goes for almost all the god battles. I am finding this applies to many map bosses as well. (Though I suppose people who just shape easy maps wouldn't notice that as much).

I really like the new god battles that are more tactical (looking at what the gods are doing feels quite important) instead of just optimizing enemies to take and deal a lot of damage.

I feel GGG wants players to look at the monsters and environments they create and have players react to them instead of just having players nuke the screen and look at item drops.

Edit: Glass cannons trivialize most content. It is only FAIR that they have some content that is hard for them because of how they built their character. It is called a trade-off.

Edit: I suppose I have experienced Stockholm Syndrome towards the Labyrinth. When it started I hated it immensely because I was so poor at it. Instead of avoiding it, I challenged it repeatedly seeing myself being bad at the Labyrinth as a weakness in me and my character. I now feel grateful toward the Labyrinth and believe it deserves a spot in the game. (I do support the recent nerfs towards the Labyrinth however.) Yep, sounds like Stockholm Syndrome.

I'm glad you enjoyed powering through jarring, unnecessary, boring gameplay until you enjoyed it. I have no interest in doing such a thing when there are so many games out there that give me exactly what I want. Mass Effect gives you the ability to bypass the minigames, pretty much all the bethesda games do. To constanlty have to run labs, multiple times, on multiple characters is unacceptable. I'll keep checking in on this thread every once in a while to see if they make the labs optional, something that would hurt NO ONE. Not even those that like the lab. There is no reason not to make labs optional except for apathy from the game designers. Like I said, I haven't picked up this game since posting this and I won't until labs are fixed by making this loathsome content optional and not mandatory in order to unlock the potential of each character build.

As a new player that started in 3.0 i was quite amazed by the progression system in this game. Imo labyrinth fits the progression and adds a theme to the "ascendancy classes" and i have to say it looked really cool first time i enter there. Tbh it doesn't take that much time and is something different than brainlessly killing monster in maps. You have to be careful and patient in there or you will get destroyed by traps. Considering it is once per character and that you can still get some nice loot out of it i don't think it is in a bad place.

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IIPheXII wrote:

As a new player that started in 3.0 i was quite amazed by the progression system in this game. Imo labyrinth fits the progression and adds a theme to the "ascendancy classes" and i have to say it looked really cool first time i enter there. Tbh it doesn't take that much time and is something different than brainlessly killing monster in maps. You have to be careful and patient in there or you will get destroyed by traps. Considering it is once per character and that you can still get some nice loot out of it i don't think it is in a bad place.

Kitava was also once per character. But you could pay someone to beat it when it was overbuffed, and even now that it is nerfed. That makes the game so much more fluid and the fact that you can have a friend help you with Kitava in no way hinders the game. Being forced to do loathsome content, when other loathsome content has the ability for you to earn a way to bypass it, is extremely poor design. And anyone who would want to force loathsome content on players that hate it, because THEY enjoy it, when making it optional would have literally no effect on the players that enjoy it, is being completely inconsiderate.

They could allow us to get Ascendencie a completely different way which is in line with how we do 99 percent of the content and still keep the option to get Ascendeny from labs as well. Maybe we can kill a boss, or hunt some mobs, or complete a specific map to get Ascendency instead of being forced to play a mini-game which is inconsistent with 99 percent of the rest of the gameplay. If you enjoy Labs but acknowledge that others don't enjoy it, and still advocate that it should be forced down other people's throats when it would be all too easy to make it mandatory, well let's just say you are also the type of person who would be against the Kitava nerfs and also advocate taking away the ability to have someone help you with bosses. Because why give players the ability to bypass content they don't like on their road to progression? Minds well just force everyone to suffer because a few people enjoy the extra challenge.

IF you advocate for keeping labs mandatory because "oh it builds good skills and makes sense on the road to progression, so it has to be mandatory." You should also advocate for taking away the ability for others to help with bosses. And you should advocate that they rebuff Kitava back to what he was because it would "build character" to pass such a mandatory, annoying trial in order to progress and unlock the full potential of your character.

Even if you personally like labs, unless you can give me a reason why gaining the ability to gain ascendency in other ways would hurt you personally, you should be advocating for GGG to make labs optional. If you truly enjoy the content they put out, including labs, getting them to allow Ascendency gain in other way will draw in more players and more money for GGG. Support them by helping us fix this lab problem.

I don't know...

I'm personally not a huge fan of the lab, however, considering the reward (at least once per character) it's pretty well worth whatever hassle you might experience.

It's difficult content, but it has a high reward, it's probably the biggest build enabler there is in the game.

You only need to run it once, per character, GGG only forces you to do the trials once per account/league.

You can buy lab carries for ridiculously low prices, if you get a good carry service, just get yourself 5 bubbling life flasks and you're good to go.

If you somehow manage to still die to the traps, you should really consider just becoming better at the game...

They've probably made it as easy as it can possibly be while still being hard enough to be worthy of the rewards it gives.

In the end, it's like any other feature in a game, no one is forcing you to use it, you're the one that does it. Don't like it? don't use it. And if you feel it's necessary for your build, just get over yourself and do 4 runs, won't even take 30 minutes with a decent carry.

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ProfessorGanymede wrote:

Even if you personally like labs, unless you can give me a reason why gaining the ability to gain ascendency in other ways would hurt you personally, you should be advocating for GGG to make labs optional. If you truly enjoy the content they put out, including labs, getting them to allow Ascendency gain in other way will draw in more players and more money for GGG. Support them by helping us fix this lab problem.

How would that help GGG?
How would that attract new players?

As an outsider, I wouldn't even know about lab, your point doesn't really make sense

"

How would that help GGG?
How would that attract new players?

As an outsider, I wouldn't even know about lab, your point doesn't really make sense

Glad you asked. Any company worth it's salt would be in love with free advertising and free advocacy. I talk a lot about the things I like, including video games. If I bring in even one other person and they like the game, they could spend enormous amounts of money on this game. I know years back I brought a friend into League of Legends and he ended up spending hundreds of dollars on skins. My friend brought another friend into Magic the Gathering, and he ended up spending hundreds of dollars on cards.

But if I choose to not talk about this game to my friends, or even worse, advocate against this game because of my experience with loathsome content and GGG's apathy towards my concerns, well that hurts any business. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the value of good press.

"

OArchAngelO wrote:

I don't know...

I'm personally not a huge fan of the lab, however, considering the reward (at least once per character) it's pretty well worth whatever hassle you might experience.

It's difficult content, but it has a high reward, it's probably the biggest build enabler there is in the game.

You only need to run it once, per character, GGG only forces you to do the trials once per account/league.

You can buy lab carries for ridiculously low prices, if you get a good carry service, just get yourself 5 bubbling life flasks and you're good to go.

If you somehow manage to still die to the traps, you should really consider just becoming better at the game...

They've probably made it as easy as it can possibly be while still being hard enough to be worthy of the rewards it gives.

In the end, it's like any other feature in a game, no one is forcing you to use it, you're the one that does it. Don't like it? don't use it. And if you feel it's necessary for your build, just get over yourself and do 4 runs, won't even take 30 minutes with a decent carry.

With a lab carry you still have to run through the traps. The traps are the annoying part of labs, not the mobs or boss.

"You only need to run it once, per character, GGG only forces you to do the trials once per account/league."

This same argument could be made to advocate for reversing the Kitava nerfs and making it so no one can help you with the boss. But giving Kitava nerfs and allowing the ability for someone to kill him for you with no risk to your character has improved the game immensely. It keeps the challenge for those that want the challenge because Kitava is still rippy. And it allows those that just want to get to maps to do it fast and speed to the content they really enjoy. Win win. They could do the same for labs and it would hurt no one. Anyone advocating for labs to stay mandatory, even if you like them, are hurting GGG and PoE as a whole.

"If you somehow manage to still die to the traps, you should really consider just becoming better at the game..."

Again, same could be said about Kitava.